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mikeyschaefer
climber
Yosemite
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Jan 22, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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Did you guys ever consider that all those cracks surrounding the bolts were full of ice at the time so he was forced to drill?
You always have a choice to drill a bolt. The only thing icy cracks have "forced" me to do in Patagonia was go down.
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ALPINEMAN
Trad climber
bogota
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Jan 22, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
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mikey, but for the new bolt in (ex) compressor route what do you think?
you approved?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 22, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
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Obviously, the majority I feel are on the side of leave them in, but the minority took it on themselves to impress their will on all of us.
You obviously somehow think thirty people better represent the world than two people. I'd say nothing whatsoever is obvious about a 'majority' on the topic.
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Bababata
Mountain climber
Utopia
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Jan 22, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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Indeed, how is it that forty random foreigners residing in El Chalten suddenly represent all of us? Locals were not included because they don't know what a bolt is, neither were park rangers, let alone for ordinary climbers across the world... Shouldn't a democratic vote include everyone? Or do those select 40 represent only the people that want to climb Cerro Torre? Or the people that "think" they can climb Cerro Torre?
I don't see the "democratic" aspects of that vote - please enlighten me.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 22, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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I had to translate one of the english-speaker's posts : mauerhakenstreit
Some interesting stuff, there:
"One thing only do I know: that I stand just about alone in my opinions, and whenever I expressed something of them, the answer was always: 'Quite an ideal point of view, but a crazy notion.' "
quote from Paul Preuss
Are you going to poll a bunch of climbers/Argentinians/Argentinian climbers to decide what to do next?
Is there anyone who might want to have a look at what klk referenced?
http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/MauerhakenstreitCompleteIllustrated.pdf
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Jan 22, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but it stirs some memories from the sludge.
If anyone is over-caffeinated and would like to explore a similar subject, consider for a moment a crappy overcrowded little 5.6 in New Hampshire: Thin Air.
http://www.neclimbs.com/SMF_2/index.php?topic=419.0
with the major proviso that there was an actual voted-upon, argued, and meetings-attended consensus reached regarding subject at hand... the same consensus that was ignored by youth(s).
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 22, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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Just ask the Godfather.
The bird is the word.
'nuff said.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 22, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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> @ all who speak favorably of the hayden/kruk action: what is your thinking about the posted article?
1. It was interesting and worth reading.
2. I represented the opinions of 40 climbers who were active that season and in town.
3. At the time of the vote, the final difficulty of the "Fair Means" version was not known.
4. I wish the vote had gone the other way. :-)
5. Climbers tend to vote for the status quo, at least in terms of keeping things that have been around for awhile.
6. Sometimes (as climbers or otherwise) we choose to do things that are opposed by the majority, or even illegal.
Sometimes these decisions are good ones and even change opinions (and laws).
7. Whether or not the bolts will stay gone, more will be removed, or some will be restored is not really a direct result of the vote.
What will matter is how strongly climbers feel about it, and how willing they are to do something up there.
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Kimbo
Sport climber
seattle
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Jan 22, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
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Especially when their climb was very moderate in difficulty nothing the average third year climber couldn't pull off.
i'd opine that the difficulty of the new climbing has no bearing on the issue....
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Gene
climber
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Jan 22, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Jan 22, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
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A few more images for context. From Argentina's Vertical magazine.
And one of my own.
I get that we're not comparing apples and oranges here, but with all the concern that has been aired here in sunny California about quarter inch time bombs, doesn't the compressor itself represent a kind of icy sword of Damocles for someone down below? Should it remain? Were there ever efforts to remove it but not the bolts? Just wondering.
By the way, mikeylikesrocks has some pretty great images of the Torre and surrounding environs.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 22, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
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Still waiting for hard - first hand, that is - facts as to what Jason and Hayden actually did. How many Maestri bolts were there? How many did they remove, and where? How many are left? (What about Bridwell's rivets at the top?) How many bolts or rivets are there in total on their route, what is its difficulty, and is there still a fixed rappel route of some sort? What conditions were the removed bolts in? Did anything get done with the compressor? Did they do anything to fill the old holes, or?
It seems likely that they removed a fair number of bolts, but beyond that we really don't know yet.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 22, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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Especially when their climb was very moderate in difficulty nothing the average third year climber couldn't pull off.
Coz, I know you are upset but that statement is both outrageous and condescending.
If it were true the world would be filled with hero shots on the summit of Cerro Torre.
But some pretty hard crag rats have been bouted up there while average 3rd years are still looking for the colored tape.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 22, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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I can remember when I was new to climbing and first reading about the Compressor Route and the history behind it. It sounded like a disaster then and based upon some of the pictures I've seen in this thread, I'm not that unhappy that it's gone. Whether it was these two climbers position to do what they did (and remember we still don't know exactly what's been done) is another matter and one that's going to be discussed for a very long time.
Time seems to have a way of over-riding the sting of poor decisions. Kind of like a statue of limitations of some sort. There seems to be a point where nostalgia overrules common sense and people begin to think things like their Ford Pinto was actually a decent car and not an engineering death trap.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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Anders the typical armchair quarterback.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 22, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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Sorry, Werner - I'm acting just like a SAR person, trying to get more information. I wouldn't want to mentally speculate or anything. Hee hee.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 22, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
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First the route is being reported by Rolo as 5.11+ A2 not 5.10.
Secondly we are talking about climbing in Patagonia not JT or the Valley or RMNP or even the Big Ditch.
I agree that at home crags in the lower 48 states 5.10 A2 isn't all that hard but on Cerro Torre it is.
If that grade was so easy wouldn't Steve Schnieder have been running laps on the 5.10 A1 Bolt Route already.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jan 22, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
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I respect Michael Kennedy too much to slam Hayden like I normally would, I have to admit.
Coz-after what you've said about Hayden you're lucky if he doesn't wrap his hand around your skinny little neck and squeeze. POP!
Arne
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 22, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
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If a small team made an alpine-style ascent of the north face of Jannu, then chopped all the bolts and fixed ropes left up there by the Russian big-wall team on the FA of the Odintsov Direct route, I wonder if there would be as much outrage and condemnation as there has been here. I suspect the answer is no.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jan 22, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
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