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WBraun
climber
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Kevin that super chicken 3rd pitch is nothing.
I'm the worst face climber and I free soloed the whole route onsite.
Ask Accamazo, Kauk or yourself to verify how shitty I am at face climbing ...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I think Western Civilization can withstand the assault.
Then, why are you on this thread? It doesn't matter, after all. Only elite alpinism matters, after all.
Reading what you said upthread, I thought that I was in agreement with you. But, as I've learned on other threads, you just like to fight with me, so you'll find a fight where there is none.
So, my perpetual response to you now is identifying your classic MD syndrome: Often wrong; never uncertain.
None of this matters, so I think that Western Civilization is going to go where it goes (namely: into oblivion) regardless. Entropy always gets its man!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I was not replying directly to the Suoer Chicken situation. My point is merely this.....everyone is talking about the sanctity of the FA and how if you aren't ready for a climb don't get on it. That I believe is true about routes like the B/Y. HOWEVER......if an easy route (read 5.7) is put up by a superior climber with no pro that does not mean that an average climber should be denied climbing it.
The superior climber had the same experience on it that an average climber might have on a Class 4 climb. What I presented was a hypothetical it had nothing to do with Super Chicken. How MadBolter could call that an elitist attitude is totally beyond me.
Madbolter.....I don't know you and given the overall tenor of your posts these past few years I certainly don't want to make the effort to change that.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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If there were but one route of each grade on this planet, a reasonable case could be made for the notion that each route should be accessible to the masses. Of course, such is not the case. All of us can find countless non-stressful climbs, if that’s what we crave, at any grade we are capable of climbing. I do many non-stressful climbs, but those are not what I crave. Once you decide that the FA party doesn’t have the creative control of their route, then climbs, taken as a whole, trend toward the lowest common denominator. To me, the lowest common denominator is not what climbing is about.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I also don't believe that the lowest common denominator isn't what climbing is about....check my record. I simply am trying to point out that when a 5.13 climber put up a route and doesn't protect a 5.7 pitch it's not because he/she is bold and wants to keep the climb real...it's because the pitch is as simple as walking down the sidewalk and chewing gum at the same time. Why should such a climb remain unavailable to an average climber who would truly appreciate it?
As to my reference to extreme alpinism, I wasn't trying to be elitist, I was pointing out that there are segments of climbing that are replete with objective dangers (avalanches, rockfall, bad weather) that cannot be avoided. Entering that world is up to the individual. Ordinary rock climbers on easy routes under a blue California sky shouldn't be subjected to arbitrary danger because the expert first asenscionist didn't need protection. Over and OUT!
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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I simply am trying to point out that when a 5.13 climber put up a route and doesn't protect a 5.7 pitch it's not because he/she is bold and wants to keep the climb real...it's because the pitch is as simple as walking down the sidewalk and chewing gum at the same time. Why should such a climb remain unavailable to an average climber who would truly appreciate it?
Most any policy, procedure, or agreement, when applied broadly, creates certain applications that are subject to legitimate criticism. The fact of finding such examples doesn't prove the appropriateness of tossing the policy. In this case, throwing the doors open to bolting every climb that someone finds spicy is a wrong response.
Second, your argument leads to the notion that some run-out 5.7's must stay run-out because the FA was gripped, while other 5.7's should be bolted because the FA wasn't gripped. Is that really what we want? "Nope, can't Sloan that route, the FA wasn't doing 5.10 leads when it was put up."
Third, who is going to determine when it was a 5.13 climber who didn't protect because he didn't feel a need? No one. Instead, everyone will bolt anything with regard to nothing more than their comfort level.
Fourth, many run-out classics that average climbers seek out are run-out because the FA team was too strong to need many bolts. An obvious exemplar: Snake Dike. I hope that your bolting philosophy never finds it way to such climbs.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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HOWEVER......if an easy route (read 5.7) is put up by a superior climber with no pro that does not mean that an average climber should be denied climbing it.
No. That's exactly what it means. There are tons and tons of routes that an "average climber" can go do. But when the "average climber" wants to push his/her limits, there SHOULD be routes that s/he can test all aspects of his/her limits. This is a unique route, and even as a hypothetical, it makes the case FOR leaving routes alone, so that they can be experienced by whatever subset of climbers want that experience.
The superior climber had the same experience on it that an average climber might have on a Class 4 climb. What I presented was a hypothetical it had nothing to do with Super Chicken.
Maybe. Maybe not. You don't know. I've done lots of 5.10+ free-soloing BITD, including on slabs. And my hands were sweating reading the FA account. It's pretty elitist of you to assume what the experience of the FA team was or what would be the experience of, say, a 5.10 climber who wanted to start free-soloing at the 5.7 level. You just don't know.
How MadBolter could call that an elitist attitude is totally beyond me.
Oh, okay. Let me help you out. It's pretty simple, really.
See, when you say, "Nobody should risk their life ANYWHERE in the Sierra," and, "If you want to start doing life-risking things, the only place for you is in serious alpinism," (which, of course, you count yourself as a paradigm example of), then it IS ELITIST in the extreme.
What would you think of me if I started saying things like, "Unless you are doing micro-flake hooking, you are not doing any serious aid." Or, "Until you've done MY sort of climbing, you don't know what 'risk' is."
But you perpetually pop-off with just those sorts of comments.
So, hopefully now it's no longer "beyond you" how I (and others) can read your "elite alpinism" screed as elitist (and, frankly, entirely wrong-headed).
Madbolter.....I don't know you and given the overall tenor of your posts these past few years I certainly don't want to make the effort to change that.
Trust me, your one post about making snide comments at the base of El Cap watching a noob team struggle is enough to make that feeling mutual!
Get over yourself.
You've done some hard stuff. So have I. So have MANY others. And your stuff is no more awesome, seriously, than a first-time 5.8 leader way run-out, shaking, mentally-maxed, but keeping it together and pulling the lead off! THAT is the essence of climbing, and I respect THAT, whether it's that first run-out 5.8 lead, run-out micro-flake hooking, Patagonia, K2, or a HOST of other mental-tests where people go WAY outside their comfort-zone and thereby gain a deeper knowledge of WHAT they are.
I DON'T respect your repeated innuendos and flat-out inferences to the effect that ONLY the sort of stuff you've done is really respectable. If you don't actually believe that about yourself, then it's sure strange how often that's what you've effectively said, like just upthread.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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As to my reference to extreme alpinism, I wasn't trying to be elitist, I was pointing out that there are segments of climbing that are replete with objective dangers (avalanches, rockfall, bad weather) that cannot be avoided.
I'm boggled! SURE they can be avoided. Just don't go into that environment!
Entering that world is up to the individual.
But, somehow, that's NOT the case on the run-out 5.7?
Ordinary rock climbers on easy routes under a blue California sky shouldn't be subjected to arbitrary danger because the expert first asenscionist didn't need protection.
Nobody is "subjected" to such a thing. They have the EXACT same choice as the alpinist to enter that environment. If anything, the "arbitrary danger" IS in mountaineering, where you can die through no fault and no choice of your own (other than being there in the first place). The dangers in rock-climbing are FAR more chosen than arbitrary.
So, it makes FAR more sense to risk it all in rock-climbing, where at least you have a good shot at detecting and coping with the dangers you are actually facing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I personally could give a rats ass if an FA of mine every sees a second ascent and I don't climb for anyone else so I don't try to make routes easy or hard, risky or risk-free - I just climb them, go with my feelings and what happens happens.
So if you get your jollies on the FA, it matters not a whit if anyone else ever enjoys that climb. Bully for you.
If you get yours during the FA and don't care about any other climbers, should it matter then if someone else does the climb by adding bolts?
Or is that you really do care about other people climbing your routes?
No I don't care if anyone else climbs a route I do. And the reality is 'other climbers' don't enter into the equation at all when I'm climbing. Hell, I barely matter once I leave the ground as I explicitly strive to get out of my head as fast as humanly possible and just 'go with the flow'. And I have to say that, in this day and age of mostly manufactured climbs, it almost seems as if people no longer 'get' almost any aspect of the experience of doing groundup, onsight FAs and just dealing with whatever you find as you come to it. I personally find that truly lamentable and hardly what I'd call 'progress'; if anything, I consider it a significant regression in 'modern' climbing.
What I do care about is my FAs not be retrobolted - i.e. if they don't want to climb it the way it is they should simply move on. Again, I don't try to put up easy or hard, safe or X-rated routes - I don't in any way even think like that. I just get obsessed with a line and try to do it in as clean and as 'honestly' [to my style] as possible. And while some FAs I've done are R or R/X, I'm not a bold person, but rather I simply dealt with what I found as best I could. Also in that regard, I've never put up a route that was R or R/X that I haven't led multiple if not many multiple times.
If I was ever so scared of my own route that I wouldn't climb it again then I can assure you I would 'fix it' in some fashion or another, but so far that has never occurred. In forty-three years of climbing I've installed one protection bolt on an FA of mine and that was in lieu of a double 1# Loweball placement I used on the FA. I did it after my FA partner observed no one else would likely ever have two of those or think to use them there. I deferred to her in that case, but it is still an R/X lead even with that bolt due to the combined technical nature of both the pro and moves (I've also lead the route many dozens of times since).
P.S. Jim, have to say that I also thought that post came off as fairly elitist. I get that your pallet ranges far and wide and includes both rock and remote alpine climbing, but - while getting your 5.13 / 5.7 point - I find the assertion that the world of domestic rock climbing should be reduced to relatively risk-free entertainment somewhat disenchanting, if not disappointing (though certainly not out of step with these 'modern' times).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Last I checked, the survival rate of people successfully summitting K2 was 23%....that means that 23 of the people out of 100 that have climbed the thing have never come down alive....
No, I think you mean "the fatality rate" rather than the "survival rate."
Often wrong; never uncertain.
The important point is that people should have the opportunity to push their limits, even if they may pay the ultimate price trying. Most people will never have the resources necessary to mount a trip to K2 or Patagonia. So, because most climbers can't even get into the environment to take "the ultimate risk," somehow that means that every 5.7 must be "safe"?
I seriously don't follow the argument.
It's a simple principle: Leave existing routes in the same character as the FA. And the beauty of the principle is that it's a "negative" principle: You perfectly satisfy it by doing NOTHING! Just DON'T do anything to "fix" existing routes to your "standard," and you'll have "done" plenty.
If I was ever so scared of my own route that I wouldn't climb it again then I can assure you I would 'fix it' in some fashion or another, but so far that has never occurred.
Joe, I've FA-ed various routes that I would never want to repeat. Yet, I'm glad I did them once. So, are you saying that I'm duty-bound to go back and "fix" them? Or should I applaud Woot-boy to go do that for me?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And, Joe, I've FA-ed various routes that I would never want to repeat. Yet, I'm glad I did them once. So, are you saying that I'm duty-bound to go back and "fix" them? Or should I applaud Woot-boy to go do that for me?
I'm me, you're you, what you decide for your FAs is your business, not mine. Again, I don't mind not getting up other people's routes, but I loathe not being able (or willing) to get up my own. As I said, never happened to me so far. YMMV.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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5 years later and only Ed H has been up there to report, took a picture of that sweet pitch but didn't choose to do it that day.
And no one else here, passionate posts not withstanding, have been up there and done the pitch.
More doing, less talking...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I dunno, if I were a local, I would likely go have a look. I'm not so I talk on ST and do my doing where I do.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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...not necessarily about that one pitch on that one route... just in general...
I'm sure there are other climbs in other areas like it.
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Pete Hill
Social climber
Squamish
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Add bolts and see an amazing pitch get climbed. Where you are in your youth should not be the measure of your acquired judgement for all time.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Or don't clip the bolts
This is and has always been the weakest and most pathetic of all the conceivable arguments for retrobolting.
Add bolts and see an amazing pitch get climbed. Where you are in your youth should not be the measure of your acquired judgement for all time.
In my experience, nine times out of ten "acquired judgment" is simply a euphemism for someone hitting thirty-two with a job, wife, kids and bigger waist or is now middle-aged or beyond - either way they no longer have the goods or wherewithal to do a route the way they did it when they were younger. Acknowledge and accept that reality and either do something about yourself or don't - but don't add bolts. Personally, I find that embarrassing and both disrespectful of your earlier self and everyone who has led the route in the meantime. The other excuse - wanting to share a great route - I find an equally weak cover for said realities.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Add bolts and see an amazing pitch get climbed.
Add bolts and see a unique pitch become just another 5.7, like the millions that are already available.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I'm me, you're you, what you decide for your FAs is your business, not mine.
Cooth! That's what I believed you'd say and what I hoped you'd say.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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No one ever said every 5.7 should be safe. You are putting words in people's mouths to make your own arguments that they never posted.
Actually, some people are now slowly backing away from arguments that weren't sustainable in the first place.
And every single rock climb on Earth can be done as "X". Just leave your rope on the ground, can't you?
Ridiculous. Not worth a response other than to just say: Ridiculous.
The argument that doesn't make sense is that somehow the adventure of a climb is lost forever because a bolt was added to make the falling leader only maybe killed rather than certainly killed. How the f*#k is this true?
The fact that you need this explained to you means that it can never be explained to you.
Just leave existing routes in their FA character. End of story.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Leave existing routes in there FA character eh. Let's extend that concept a bit....I have some FA's in Yosemite from the 70's that I would dearly love to see you styling in the FA character.....read, no cams.
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