Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
squishy
Mountain climber
sacramento
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
|
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
|
"...the health reform bill effectively prevents me from shopping around among competing companies for insurance, because if I buy a new policy it is predetermined to include coverages I do not want to pay for."
I don't think that's the case, since the HR bill still relies completely on the private market to provide policies. There will be regulations on exclusions, or termination of coverage, to be sure.
Regardless, creating policies customized to only the coverages you are interested in (or are aware of) can't be a practical option. Sure, you might have a good idea of the conditions you'd like to insure yourself against, but for every one of them there are 10 more conditions you've never heard of, or could result from one of the conditions you did select coverage for.
Multiply those 'customized' policies times 450 million people...there's no way the insurance industry to create such a system and split the atom that far. Insurance policies, by practical reality, have to be more broad than that, and that's gonna mean there's some coverages in there that may not apply to you, or you don't want. It's like buying cable service- you don't get to pick the channels you'd like to have, you get a package (though it would be nice if you could pick and choose, to be sure).
|
|
dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
|
I agree with Ksolem that the same logic used to argue for motorcycle helmet laws could theoretically be applied to create safety regulations for climbers. Especially climbers in national parks.
And I wouldn't want to see that happen.
But apogee's point about the proportion of the risk does come into play. I also think there is some context that needs to be considered as well. Highways are created by the government, which implies that the goverment should have the power to regulate them more. The purpose of the highways are efficient and safe transportation, so safety regulations are well within the scope of the governement's role.
National parks are natural or historical areas that are only managed by the government - primarily for the purpose of protecting them. Safety is a concern, as it should be anywhere, but it is not the primary charter of the NPS.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
|
Helmet laws came about because there are millions and millions of people in the US who ride them every single day- no matter how you feel about motorcyles, all agree that the rate of accident and injury is much higher than vehicles (when measured by participant hours:injuries/cost). The medical costs of these injuries is massive, and one of the most commonly incurred injury, and the most expensive to treat, are head injuries.
With the millions and millions and millions of participant hours that are generated each year, the proportional rate of injury is quite high- this activity is common enough that it has been studied and classified quite well by highway administrations and the insurance industry. At some point, some states decided these costs were being unfairly distributed amongst other members of that state, and decided that regulation would help decrease these costs. In states that have adopted helmet laws, there is clear evidence to support that.
Climbing, on the other hand, remains a 'fringe' activity in society, with nowhere near as many participants, and therefore, far, far fewer injured people. With so few participants, complete, comprehensive data on rates of injury:participant day is non-existent. While we all know someone who has been hurt to varying degrees, your anecdotal experience is not much less than the actual statistics that exist to show clear trends.
If, by some stretch of the imagination, climbing becomes as common an activity as motorcycling, a much clearer trend of incident and injury types will emerge. (I vow to quit climbing if it ever becomes that common.) Until then, any speculation on helmet laws coming to pass on climbers in National Parks is just fearmongering speculation.
Edit: I guess what I'm verbosely trying to say is that comparing helmet laws to climbing isn't a valid comparison. Yes, that was much more to the point.
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
|
On a more stranger note...where are Norton and LEB??
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
|
I am back after a couple weeks absence. Anyone miss me? Fatty maybe?
I smoke cigs, and I pay more than a non smoker every month on my healthcare premium.
This is standard procedure to adjust the policy for smoking.
I am an avid motorcyclist and I have worn a helmet for over 40 years riding.
My healthcare policy will not insure me taking lifestyle "risks", such as
if I race my bikes on a track, they will not insure any injury.
Makes sense to adjust a policy and cost for risky behavior.
I am damn proud of the Democrats for having the balls to pass the legislation.
They are taking an unknown huge personal risk of not being re elected.
I cannot imagine Republicans putting what they feel deeply is better for
the average American over their own personal gain by staying in office.
Watch the Dems and Obama continue to take on the biggest problems in America.
Watch them start the debate on immigration next, and watch them actually
"govern", pass legislation that cleans up that mess, including dealing
with the 20 million illegals here already, including a comprehensive path to
US citizenship. Watch the Republicans scream "amnesty" and fearmonger.
Ain't I a good looking old fart?
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
|
Holy sh#t Norton..that was fast!
On another note...how do deal with a base that thinks:
* 67 percent of Republicans (and 40 percent of Americans overall) believe that Obama is a socialist.
The belief that Obama is a “domestic enemy” is widely held—a sign of trouble yet to come.
* 57 percent of Republicans (32 percent overall) believe that Obama is a Muslim
* 45 percent of Republicans (25 percent overall) agree with the Birthers in their belief that Obama was "not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president"
* 38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did"
* Scariest of all, 24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama "may be the Antichrist."
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
|
Fatty, based on your desire to use war as a controlling factor in other countries and your definition of socialism, you have to be conflicted. That, or your definition of socialism is bunk. So which is it?
Who was that serial killer that everyone said they liked. Lots of people have little discernment. That is why there are so many teachings about wolves in sheeps clothing. Cheney would chew you up and spit your out if it served his purpose.
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
|
Moosie wrote: Cheney would chew you up and spit your out if it served his purpose.
Wow..Cheney and Israel have a lot in common.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
|
Welcome back, Norton. We missed ya!
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
|
Bob, coincidence, I was typing before I read your post.
LEB, who knows. Maybe she has found a more welcoming internet site to post on
I cannot imagine posting in an atmosphere that would be openly hostile to me
unless I really enjoyed irritating and pissing most everyone off.
Again, it took real guts to pass healthcare.
And give a lot of credit to Harry Reid. He alone was the driving force
behind getting 60 votes in the Senate. He is as much responsible for the
passing of this great piece of legislation as Pelosi and Obama and his staff.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:11pm PT
|
Thanks Apogee! It is nice to be back.
I am scheduled for an MRI on my back this Thursday.
And with that, my doc will know exactly where to stick the needle and inject
my lower spine with some sort of steroid stuff. Looking forward to living
without this constant pain for a while.
Great job Dems. You guys got pure grit. I am damn proud of my Dems!
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
|
Good luck Norton. I hope it works out and you are able to get some well-deserved relief.
|
|
Binks
Social climber
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:21pm PT
|
Fatty, based on your desire to use war as a controlling factor in other countries and your definition of socialism, you have to be conflicted. That, or your definition of socialism is bunk. So which is it?
I have the same question.
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
|
Bob d'A - All those "beliefs" have been perpetuated via internet. Placed within the contexts of blogs and discussion boards, and repeated ad nauseum. People DO believe the stuff.
I did not know Obama WASN'T Muslim until only a few months ago. It just seemed to be a fact. Now, I personally don't have any prejudice toward Muslims, so it wasn't seen in any sort of a negative light. But of course, there are plenty who have the belief(as perpetuated via internet) that Muslims are...(I won't even deign to write the BS people say).
Obama's election campaign put a lot of effort into dispelling the "untruths" intentionally propagated during the election campaign. Yet SO much got through. So very much disinformation. Mudslinging has always been a part of politics, but now it is at a whole new level, and disinformation campaigns are a very powerful, if disgusting, tool.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
|
Fatty, based on your desire to use war as a controlling factor in other countries and your definition of socialism, you have to be conflicted. That, or your definition of socialism is bunk. So which is it?
I have the same question.
I'm sure you'll get the same bullshit/non-answer.
There is nothing conservative about the neoconsertive viewpoint, btw.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
|
Socialism is defined as government ownership of the means of production.
There is NO "government ownership" of ANYTHING in this realignment of
healthcare "priorities".
Fatty is true to his right wing roots.
Because he CANNOT engage in relevant fact based discussion, he constantly
reverts to spreading and repeating untruths, outright lies, and selling
irrational "fear".
The right wing does not have the intellect to stand face to face against
the left. Period, There I said it.
People here on the left spend a huge amount of their time correcting the
lies and ignorance of those posting from the right.
Republicans cannot, cannot, cannot engage in meaningful, rational, fact
based discussions with the left. They lack the intellect
PERIOD
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
|
Aw, come on dirtbag. All those tea baggers and republicans who keep saying over and over that the majority of americans don't want the healthcare reform can't be wrong. Can they?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
|
Poll released today by Gallup shows more Americans approve of the bill than disapprove it.
Of course the American public approves.
We're all sick from the toxic waste in our bodies from the industrial revolution .....
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!