Creationists Take Another Called Strike - and run to dugout

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Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Dec 26, 2009 - 02:03pm PT

Hey BC

Not cranky. You know the net, when somebody is disagreeing with you, it sounds cranky no matter what.

How can you know there's no energetic karmic connection in seeing your friend in DC out of the blue? It can't be proved either way.

Ed wrote

it's not a stretch...
it just doesn't happen the way you think it does... it's a card trick, and a well known one at that

Don't know what you're talking about, please explain.

Dr. F may be correct. The Dog story could just be made up! However there are trillions of such stories and when they start happening to you, you take notices. Dr F writes

Has anyone ever mystical experience so miraculous that it withstand any scientific inquiry, NO

There is a well known scientific research program that is offering a 1 million dollar prize for anyone with psychic abilities to demonstrate them in front of a scientific panel, all takers have failed, most were exposed as frauds

No one has demonstrated their psychic abilities, no one can win the lottery, win big at Vegas, no one has won Golf by telekinetics, - 6 billion people trying, not one has succeeded

More assumptions. Scientists avoid trying to prove the supernatural because it discredits them with other scientists. So credible scientists don't go there and if some scientists claim to have proved something, we just move them over into the pseudo-science category.

Still, your post is based on a lot of assumptions. You don't know what's been researched or not.

The atheists and agnostics on this thread make the mistake of assuming what a righteous (or otherwise) God MUST be like and it's usually simplistic. Also, if the universe really IS a conscious living interactive place, there are "rules" that keep the game going.

For example, masters with real, potent extraordinary abilities do not prove their stuff nor demonstrate for science. Why? Because people on this planet have a divine right to have their head in the sand, to believe what they want to believe and not have their mind rocked by some yogi. A true yogi gets this message on the inside and let's everybody have their own view. You don't get the revelation before you are ready and those connected with Spirit respect that.

But some interesting studies of some yogis have been done, particularly regarding meditation and such. What do you think of this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm

"Doctors and experts are baffled by an Indian hermit who claims not to have eaten or drunk anything for several decades - but is still in perfect health.

Prahlad Jani, a holy man, or fakir, who is over 70 years old, has just spent 10 days under constant observation in Sterling Hospital, in the western Indian city of Ahmedabad.

During that time, he did not consume anything and "neither did he pass urine or stool", according to the hospital's deputy superintendent, Dr Dinesh Desai.

Yet he is in fine mental and physical fettle, say doctors.

Most people can live without food for several weeks, with the body drawing on its fat and protein stores. But the average human can survive for only three to four days without water.

Followers of Indian holy men and ascetics have often ascribed extraordinary powers to them, but such powers are seldom subject to scientific inspection....."

see the segments here

http://sunlightenment.com/discovery-channel-documentary-on-breatharian-prahlad-jani/

WBraun

climber

Dec 26, 2009 - 02:08pm PT

Dr F -- No one has demonstrated their psychic abilities, no one can win the lottery, win big at Vegas, no one has won Golf by telekinetics, - 6 billion people trying, not one has succeeded

You continuously demonstrate pure stupidity and extreme sophism.

A bonafide spiritual master would never show up for nonsense such as proving he can win the lottery. His life would become a living hell as all these greedy people attack him to help them in their greed.

Such a bonafide person will never show up for such a rascal scientific research program that is offering a 1 million dollar prize either.

The nihilistic material scientist does not want to do any spiritual work yet continually challenges the true spiritualist to "PROVE".

Challenging pure love can never be done by the materialist, the bonafide true spiritual master will never reveal himself to such a rascal and challenge.

Gobee

Trad climber

Los Angeles

Dec 26, 2009 - 02:24pm PT

"no one can win the lottery"

Unless you redeem the ticket, Jesus is the winning ticket!

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Dec 26, 2009 - 03:11pm PT

Karl,
If I am a scientist I'd love to be able to know what is going to happen in the future... in fact, most of my work is predictive, which means my physical theories will be used to say what will happen in a particular situation.

And guess what, that works very well, even given the amount that we do not understand.

Now if I had a way of "intuiting" the outcome, it would be a huge advantage to my research activity. I could short cut around all the false starts and irrelevant stuff and just get to what it is I want to know. It would be great, and I wouldn't have to tell anyone I was doing it if I were producing first class science. I'd have the amazing power to figure out just what I should be working on, and what I shouldn't waste my time doing.

It wouldn't discredit me in the least if I utilized that way of thinking to come up with legitimate science, since we don't actually have a physical model of thought, especially how to specifically think these things up... well, we do have a way, but it is tedious and fraught with blind allies, false starts and negative proofs. Wouldn't it be nice if it were easy, put myself in some meditative state and see the answer... wow... no fuss, no muss...

The reason scientists don't do it is because it doesn't work, at least not for understanding the physical universe.

On the other hand, if you not only eschew the quantitative study of the physical (material) universe, but also any quantitative measure of the "spiritual universe" than you have the liberty to declare that it works and that you don't have to demonstrate it scientifically...

...of course, anyone can do that with anything. It is so much easier to explain something when you don't have actually prove anything.

Just open yourself up to the universe and let it flow through you.

I don't have anything against that.... I do it all the time myself. I don't believe that that state is much more than my individual response to the physical stimuli and my experience (which includes the experience of others as communicated to me through my senses).

The experience is as beautiful as if I didn't know anything about Mie scattering, or thermonuclear reactions, or gravity... though those things enhance the beauty and sharpen the moment.

But you can fool yourself, badly, by just acting on what you feel inside, by believing what you think... especially if you take that as the definition of the universe.

WBraun

climber

Dec 26, 2009 - 03:22pm PT

Ed -- But you can fool yourself, badly, by just acting on what you feel inside, by believing what you think.

Yes, this is true.

This applies to everyone.

So what is the standard (foundation), that is measured against.

climber

Prescott, AZ

Dec 26, 2009 - 03:29pm PT

How can you know there's no energetic karmic connection in seeing your friend in DC out of the blue? It can't be proved either way.

Exactly, but the possibilty of this event can be demonstrated using statistics minus any mystical inferences. I know there is a stastical probablity, I do not have to assume this, an actual number can be derived. If the chance were 1 in 200,000,000, there would still be that one chance.

on the other hand, I have no way of demonstrating any "energetic karmic connection" and I'm not apt to assume one. Why should I? There was nothing miraculous in our individual trips, modes of travel or our itineraries. You want to see the mystical connection, but have no way of really knowing one exists, so you assume it does. I will admit that I probably apply Joacim's Razor too stringently. I may be missing a lot. I guess I try to accept things as they happen without preloading them with mystic baggage.

Let's say a man leaves NY on his way to your home town. He arrives 4 days later. That same morning you get up to go buy milk. On the way you and the guy from NY arrive at a 4 way stop at exactly the same moment. What are the odds? You are both driving white cars. What are the odds? He shares your birthday and he's married to your wife's 3rd cousin. What are the odds? You drive off and never discover these many statisically improbable connections. No personal meeting, no wow moment. Coicidence or karmic connection? At what point does an event become a karmic connection? Are there no coincidences or is it all coincidence? Something in between? (Is my agnostic angst showing?).

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Dec 26, 2009 - 03:31pm PT

Ed wrote

On the other hand, if you not only eschew the quantitative study of the physical (material) universe, but also any quantitative measure of the "spiritual universe" than you have the liberty to declare that it works and that you don't have to demonstrate it scientifically...

...of course, anyone can do that with anything. It is so much easier to explain something when you don't have actually prove anything

Personally, I would never recommend eschewing the quantitative study of the physical universe. I don't the world is 6000 years old.

I'm all for studying the spiritual as much as possible. The tools haven't been invented yet for the most part... we've got a ways to go. Did you click or check out the story of the Yogi who claimed not to eat nor drink and then proved it for 10 days? You might think something like that would make wider news or inspire further study.

Nope, our minds just gloss over it. The yogi is lucky the military didn't abduct him and force him to teach soldiers to live without food and water.

The way you describe the power of intuition, it's clear you are operating from assumptions about how it works and how it can be used. That's natural but doesn't disprove anything. And again, I'd say a lot of scientific progress, even yours, progresses from intuitive direction. It's just that we incorporate spiritual elements within ourself without identifying how we get our inspirations.

This is something that can be further developed, whether someone calls it "spiritual" or not.

Peace

Karl

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Dec 26, 2009 - 03:36pm PT

But you can fool yourself, badly, by just acting on what you feel inside, by believing what you think... especially if you take that as the definition of the universe.

Yes, of course, and that goes for everyone.

All of our "Definitions" of the universe, scientific and spiritual, are bound to be limited.

peace

karl

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Dec 26, 2009 - 03:37pm PT

"Come back to the chosen people from whom you all originated"

Hopefully FatTrad will explain for us the roots of Judaism in, and its borrowings from Zoroastrianism, Mesopotamian and Egyptian religions. Like all religions, except perhaps the very first nature cults, a human created and syncretistic thing.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Dec 26, 2009 - 03:45pm PT

BC wrote

Just be open to it being either way (divine coincidence or not) You don't have to assume anything. You can listen to your inner feeling regarding the guy who shows up unexpectedly. Talk to him. Something that happens to me all the time is this: I'll connect with somebody about something and they'll say my message came at exactly the right time with the right words for them. You may never know the "reason" why that guy was there, it's just that people are connected and things aren't random. Notice this and you'll know more about the "magic" of the world around you.

Accept things as they are without preloading them with mystic baggage or numbing yourself to the mystery either. Just observe life keenly and openly and see where it take you. If you automatically assumed "just a coincidence" you lose out on the poetry of things and the ability of life's events to get a message to you.

Peace

Karl

climber

Prescott, AZ

Dec 26, 2009 - 03:49pm PT

Just observe life keenly and openly and see where it take you.

Pretty much what I do. Were probably a lot more alike than not in many respects, just different in the degree of tilt.

Bill

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Dec 26, 2009 - 03:58pm PT

Pretty much what I do. Were probably a lot more alike than not in many respects, just different in the degree of tilt.

Bill

I think it's like that regarding a lot of supertopo debates on the intellectual level. We're all cool with each other in reality.

People are weird. We're all living in our own worlds, perceiving things through the filters of our mind and conditioning, but we share a vast amount in common too.

Learning to coexist with folks with whom we have least in common is ..... "evolution."

I think its hilarious that I'm debating this stuff with Ed. I've met him in person and he has a major spiritual "awake" vibe going in him all the time. He must have to resist hard to keep it from flashing in his rational thought train. I propose that this is why he bothers to debate so vigorously. The dam is ready to burst within him and bust his view of things.

Nothing he thinks can prevent him from being "spiritual" He just is.

It can't last. If he stands by his words here in 10 years, I'll do the idiotic whacko dance for the Facelift campfire (at least the geriatric campfire off to the side..)

peace

Karl

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Dec 26, 2009 - 04:11pm PT

you're on Karl...
...practice, practice, practice...

then we'll go and send Wild Thing

WBraun

climber

Dec 26, 2009 - 04:19pm PT

It's mostly chimneys .....

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Dec 26, 2009 - 04:26pm PT

Halalujah I Believe ! in chimneys!

Gobee

Trad climber

Los Angeles

Dec 26, 2009 - 04:34pm PT

I can't make things happen but sometimes they do, call it what you will;

I had not seen or talked to my friend Kirk in a very long time and one day I thought of him and wondered what he was doing and he call me that same day!

Also my friend the Goyle said it seem's like earthquake weather and there was one the same day!

However Jesus called it;

Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael
John 1:43-51, The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” Nathanael said to him, Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

Jesus and the Woman of Samaria
John 4:1-42, Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), he left Judea and departed again for Galilee. And he had to pass through Samaria. So he came to a town of Samaria called Sychar, near the field that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. Jacob's well was there; so Jesus, wearied as he was from his journey, was sitting beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.

A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” (For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.) The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock.” Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water.”

Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

Just then his disciples came back. They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but no one said, “What do you seek?” or, “Why are you talking with her?” So the woman left her water jar and went away into town and said to the people, “Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?” They went out of the town and were coming to him.

Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?” Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, then comes the harvest’? Look, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are white for harvest. Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. For here the saying holds true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others have labored, and you have entered into their labor.”

Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.” So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. And many more believed because of his word. They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

The Triumphal Entry

Matthew 21:1-5, Now when they drew near to Jerusalem and came to Bethphage, to the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village in front of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord needs them,’ and he will send them at once.” This took place to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet, saying,

“Say to the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your king is coming to you,
humble, and mounted on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”

MH2

climber

Dec 26, 2009 - 05:43pm PT

HalalujahI Believe, in chimneys!

I believe in chimneys, without chimneys, above chimneys, and under chimneys.

I believe I begin to see a little better what Karl is talking about, here. Whenever you meet another human being there are a lot of opportunities in that encounter which most of us most of the time just duck and try to hold our mundane course so we can get through the day without too much trouble. I've met the occasional person who, perhaps like Karl, is more open to looking at where else that encounter might take you. But don't be gullible, lest you be gulled.

People (hey! like chimneys!) hold in them a lot of possibilities, not all of which can be realized, but which can be raw material for anything from tragedy to ecstasy.

Damn! Missed the coincidence of having this thread meet the Show us Your Foot Pictures thread by just this much.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Dec 26, 2009 - 07:01pm PT

Ed wrote

you're on Karl...
...practice, practice, practice...

then we'll go and send Wild Thing

I see, you don't believe in God but are in league with the Devil!

You're leading! Cause I've been up there and I'm never going back to Hell without a leader with an asbestos suit.

Peace

Karl