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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 25, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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Karl,
Let's see, the girl loses her Dog in Arizona and finds it via a random stop on a California Beach... You think the odds aren't bad? What IS that more Logical answer. You chalk up things to "coincidence" because you just choose to do so.
Yeah, they aren't that bad, they may be large but not out of the statistical realm of what can happen when millions of people are going about doing their millions of things.
Which has taught those of us who have repeatedly seen something like miracles to shut up.
I have never told anyone to shut up or that they're nuts. I was simply pointing out that much of what appears miraculous is really mundane in a world of 6+ billion people. When you stack up the numbers, really anything can happen. A multitude of ancedotal tales does not make a certainty. They may be super, but I think mostly natural, not necassarily supernatural.
I look past these stories because after a while they seem so commonplace. At least this one did to me. Sorry, but I don't look to the heavens at every story like this. Not that I don't think there isn't any mystery in the universe, I just don't think this is where it's at.
We make our own worldview the way we please it. If your worldview hasn't changed much over your lifetime, that's because you aren't open or paying attention. I'm not saying everyone should wake up and say "I believe" but almost nobody is born with deep knowledge. Even the scientific worldview is mind boggling and extremely unlikely to our perception and common sense and those who hold it are often paying much lip service to it like a neo-con pays lip service to Christianity.
What's the REAL religion of most people? -The unconscious assumptions that are conditioned in us by our senses and upbringing.- Break free of that, one way or another, because it makes you a sheep about far more than just believing in Religion or not.
You make a lot of assumptions about people, but then you obviously run much deeper than I do.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 25, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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Karl, it is possible that the intuition that Einstein talks about is very different than how you understand it... physicists do appropriate a lot of words to means something different than their common meaning.
In this case, the intuition that Einstein talks about is the ability to follow a logical course of thought without having to stop and prove every step, to make the correct choices at points where choices have to be made, and reach the correct conclusions.
Almost always, when a physicist uses that word, it implies that the person that makes the intuitive leap does so because of their deep understanding of the physical phenomena, deep enough to be able to explain some different phenomena, which may be new and unfamiliar.
In this sense, it is not an attribute which comes from the "unknown," or some mystical process but one that comes from intense familiarity of how the universe works.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 25, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
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I always keep some emotional coin on the fantastic. That's because of having met about 104 people who have something different, possibly crazy, to say, but who otherwise seem as sane as me. The young Mike Warburton was one of the first. He did not seem at all embarrassed to talk about, for example, seeing people he knew who were far away at the time and having them talk to him, though that kind of thing didn't happen to him often and he didn't quite know what to make of it. I put a lot of faith in Karl partly because of his great story about the time he got benighted soloing and started thinking of all the people he loved. Not long ago I met a guy in the West Van sauna who turned out to have been born in the Dolpo region bordering Tibet and Nepal. He was a Buddhist monk. He said almost nothing and certainly nothing unusual but when he said, "I'll see you again," it had a distinctly different significance than usual, I thought, even though he didn't put any emphasis on it. And around 100 other instances.
However, even though many people have been curious about psychic powers and have looked for and tried to observe them in circumstances that would allow for collecting good evidence of them, it proves to be a frustrating quest. Like Sasquatch or Nessie these mysterious powers are shy around skeptics. Under bright lights they usually resolve into magic. Uri Geller type magic. Which was good enough for some.
But then again, there was that time John Muir sensed that his old geology prof from the U. of Wisconsin had arrived in Yosemite...
But even Martin Gardner, who is NOT an atheist, has pointed out that we have no way to measure the likelihood of coincidences in everyday life and that the ones we notice may have been preceded by a vast background of events as usual, that we don't perceive, because nothing crazy happened. Thankfully!
As Ed says, intuition can only take you somewhere if it comes out of understanding a larger coherent whole.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:36am PT
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Thousands of years ago a mans word was worth it's weight in gold.
Now-a-days a man with lots of gold can say anything he wants and it is taken as truth.
But if 100 ordinary people all saw the same thing and collaborate that truth it will be labeled as a conspiracy .......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 26, 2009 - 02:34am PT
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Good one Gobee!
Thanks for a good Christmas laugh!
I will keep the dancing chimps as a link for my Physical Anthropology class!
I often joke with my students that they need to always keep in mind that our brain is about three times bigger than a chimp's and then to ask themselves, does the human race on any given day act three times smarter than a chimp?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 26, 2009 - 02:40am PT
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The melding of Buddhism and Bon shamanism certainly provided David-Neel and others with fodder for a lot of ornamentalist prose, and yet, despite these parlour tricks, it's proven pretty helpless against Muslim and Chinese hegemony. Which is a sad thing, to be sure.
The point of all those parlor tricks (I assume you are thinking of the ferryman story from the life of Buddha) was to evolve human consciousness and in some cases, to cope with remoteness of the Tibetan countryside. People were trained to be able to see at a distance because there was no communication. Likewise, people who could run 300 miles in a day while in trance were useful for the same reasons. Even the current Dalai Lama has stated however, that with modern media there is no reason to train people in those arts any more.
This Dalai Lama is the 14th, but in his 13th incarnation he tried to modernize the country and warned of the disastrous consequences in not doing so. Of course at every turn he was blocked by the monastic establishment who managed to put an end to the construction of such things as a modern hospital and telegraph system, the establishment of foreign embassies, and the modernization of the army.
Thus in every culture we are confronted with the paradox of people who understand the potential of the human mind more deeply than others (and perhaps have the potential to connect with other higher minds in the universe) and the religious establishment with it's conservatism. It is an ongoing challenge to keep them separate.
As for their psychic powers not being able to keep the Chinese out (the Muslims did retreat back where they came from), they were never meant to be used in that way. The Tibetans had prayed and done their rituals twice before and the Chinese had retreated from their country voluntarily twice before, so they had reason to think it would work again. Unfortunately nothing could have stopped the Chinese millions. We barely could hold the line against their human wave attacks in Korea with all of our technology.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:40am PT
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Yup, when your time has come for transformation, it's going to get you regardless of the wishes put forth in your prayers.
The Tibetans have had a disaster in their world but as a result, their own faith has been shared with the world and renewed in its essence while it's blind ritual and hierarchy has been reformed somewhat.
The path of evolution is not all about comfort, safety or getting your way. Best thing is to learn the lessons before life beats your doors down with them
peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 26, 2009 - 03:47am PT
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Indeed!
Many ordinary Tibetans even say that one of the reasons the whole thing happened was that they violated the Buddhist precept of sharing the dharma. Instead they were stingy with it, locking it up and keeping it to themselves until forced to share.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 26, 2009 - 04:09am PT
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Come on now you all...what are the chances that the Earth is placed EXACTLY the distance away from our sun to maintain life and say that it all happened after a "big bang"? One fraction of a measure further or closer to the sun and the Earth would freeze or burn up. What about all the other bodies in this universe? What happened to them? Do you think we'll ever find another "Earth"? I agree that it is our nature to be ever curious and yearning to learn as much as we can about everthing but look at this very world we live in today! It already is in perfect harmony and contains intricate mysteries that we CONTINUE to try to figure out and to unlock it's mysteries when all of what we are trying to unlock is already put together in perfect order! We even try to duplicate what is already here! It's already been done! This planet is in order beyond our imaginations! It didn't happen by random chance or by evolution! EVERYTHING, ALL, processes in this world start to deteriorate the first moment after they are created (key word), so how can something "evolve"? If anything it "dissolves"!
EVOLU'TION, n. [L. evolutio.] The act of unfolding or unrolling.
1. A series of things unrolled or unfolded; as the evolution of ages.
2. In geometry, the unfolding or opening of a curve,and making it describe an evolvent. The equable evolution of the periphery of a circle, or other curve, is such a gradual approach of the circumference to rectitude, as that its parts do all concur, and equally evolve or unbend; so that the same line becomes successively a less arc of a reciprocally greater circle, till at last they change into a straight line.
3. In algebra, evolution is the extraction of roots from powers; the reverse of involution.
4. In military tactics, the doubling of ranks or files, wheeling, countermarching or other motion by which the disposition of troops is changed, in order to attack or defend with more advantage, or to occupy a different post.
(evolution appears in definitions for these words:
Acid Deflagration Disciplinarian Discipline Evolution Evolvent Exercise Logarithm Maneuver Oxygenate Signal Tactic Tactics Unwind)
I don't see anything in this definition (Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionay. "No other dictionary compares with the Webster's 1828 dictionary. The English language has changed again and again and in many instances has become corrupt.") that makes reference to an animal or life on this earth. On the other hand look at the definition of "dissolve":
DISSOLVE, v.t. dizzolv. [L., to loose, to free.]
1. To melt; to liquefy; to convert from a solid or fixed state to a fluid state, by means of heat or moisture.
To desolve by heat, is to loosen the parts of a solid body and render them fluid or easily movable. Thus ice is converted into water by dissolution.
To dissolve in a liquid, is to separate the parts of a solid substance, and cause them to mix with the fluid; or to reduce a solid substance into minute parts which may be sustained in that fluid. Thus water dissolves salt and sugar.
2. To disunite; to break; to separate.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness? 2 Pet 3.
3. To loose; to disunite.
Down fell the duke, his joints dissolved.
4. To loose the ties or bonds of any thing; to destroy an connected system; as, to dissolve a government; to dissolve a corporation.
5. To loose; to break; as, to dissolve a league; to dissolve the bonds of friendship.
6. To break up; to cause to separate; to put an end to; as, to dissolve the parliament; to dissolve an assembly.
7. To clear; to solve; to remove; to dissipate, or to explain; as, to dissolve doubts. We usually say, to solve doubts and difficulties.
8. To break; to destroy; as, to dissolve a charm, spell or enchantment.
9. To loosen or relax; to make languid; as dissolved in pleasure.
10. To waste away; to consume; to cause to vanish or perish.
Thou dissolvest my substance. Job 30.
11. To annul; to rescind; as, to dissolve an injunction.
DISSOLVE, v.i. dizzolv.
1. To be melted; to be converted from a solid to a fluid state; as, sugar dissolves in water.
2. To sink away; to lose strength and firmness.
3. To melt away in pleasure; to become soft or languid.
4. To fall asunder; to crumble; to be broken. A government may dissolve by its own weight or extent.
5. To waste away; to perish; to be decomposed. Flesh dissolves by putrefaction.
6. To come to an end by a separation of parts.
People, come on, what would it hurt if you placed your belief, hope, faith in the Truth of the Bible and TRY to live your life accordingly? What would you lose? I know what the Bible says you'll lose and I'm not willing to take that chance that this is all a hoax or a lie! Eternal seperation from God and in Hell or...Eternal Life with Jesus Christ? You think you have it bad here on earth? And I can speak for those that have or are suffering the most heinous of sufferings here on Earth...this is as GOOD as it gets as compared to what you'll endure in hell for ETERNITY! There is so much evidence as to how/why the Bible is True. Why refute it? Why make excuses? This isn't about religion people! It's about the Word of God and living again after you leave this Earth and spending eternity in HELL or with Jesus Christ!
Statement: So, the Truth of the Bible turns out to be a hoax...then you die. You become worm food. On the other hand, the Truth turns out to be the TRUTH and where will you spend eternity now? It was a pretty easy choice for me. I am 100% sure that when I die that I am going to spend eternity with Jesus Christ and now I am obligated to share this with others to win their souls to Christ. Refute it, disagree, get upset, contend, revile me, persecute me, say all manner of evil against me and the Lord blesses me. (Matthew 5:11)
What a God!
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 26, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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Illusiondweller,
Really, an 1828 dictionary, and you're surprised it doesn't have a reference to biological evolution? Do you even know when the theory got it's start?
Karl and others,
As to the idea of probabilities and coincidences. Let's say I take my kids to the park and there are other people kids there. Later I take my kids to the movies. While standing in line I'm standing right in front of a woman and her kids who also were at the park. Neither of us see this coincidence. Furthermore she works at the same hospital as my wife. They even share the same first name. What's more interesting is that she and I are actuall related. 3rd cousins. What are the odds of this happening? Huge I would think. Is this not amazing? And yet it is lost on us as we wait in line.
The girl at the beach who lost her dog may have missed other coincidences of which she was unaware. Perhaps this was the beach where her parents vacationed and fell in love. The dog thief works in the same building as her brother. As their awkward dog ownership dance continues, she doesn't notice that a portion of the water washing over her feet was actually drank as unsalted river water by one of her distant ancestors. That person went on to explore America and was with the very expedition that discovered this bit of beach for the Spanish.
All these are very real possibilities. We only notice when a drop jumps out of the boiling pot of possibilities for us to see and be moved by. I do this myself, but I temper it with this understanding. How many incredible, highly improbable coincidences are we witnessing yet missing everyday? It's the hum and ho-hum of it all.
Edit: Removed references to god and designer, that was not intent of this post.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 26, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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eternity in HELL
This is not true illusiondweller. This is a secretarian religious dogma based on poor fund of knowledge and injected for the purpose of fear.
Even in society no one is ever sentenced to jail for eternity.
This material world is a direct reflection of the real.
Although temporary it is not false.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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as for psychic abilities... if you think about the advantages of foretelling the future, or knowing the right place to look for something or somebody, it would have a tremendous selection advantage...
"gee, I wonder if that woman would be interested in me? ah, I can tell she isn't, go on to the next one.... ah, she is interested, lets spend some time..."
just in terms of procreating (which is the basis of natural selection) if you could tell then you would be much much more successful in propagating your genetic characteristics, and so would your offspring.
But it doesn't seem to be the case that there is any advantage to being psychic... which I take to indicate the non-existence of the "power."
As far as those "coincidences," it is part of the way your memory works, there is no disadvantage to paying attention to a coincidence of two things that are not related, and a large advantage to associating a correct causal coincidence. The memory takes these surprising coincidence triggers as part of the process of retaining the conditions, even if they are not actually causal. So it is difficult to separate out the truly causal events on just memory. Once this stuff is in our memory, it becomes a part of how we perceive reality, and the universe we build internally contains all sorts of strange relationships that persist. Often these are little superstitions, like my own of tying the left shoe before the right shoe... obviously some time I did it in the opposite way and something bad happened, associating that particular ordering with bad things... it is hard for me to tie them in the other order...
...I await Karl's and Jan's explanation on how reversing the shoe tying order can affect the day's events (somehow the whole thing resets the next day) in a manner external to what happens in my mind.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Ed writes
Once this stuff is in our memory, it becomes a part of how we perceive reality, and the universe we build internally contains all sorts of strange relationships that persist. Often these are little superstitions, like my own of tying the left shoe before the right shoe... obviously some time I did it in the opposite way and something bad happened, associating that particular ordering with bad things... it is hard for me to tie them in the other order...
...I await Karl's and Jan's explanation on how reversing the shoe tying order can affect the day's events (somehow the whole thing resets the next day) in a manner external to what happens in my mind.
The action of most rituals (and the shoe tying is both a superstition and a ritual) is secondary to the intent of it. We make an intent with our prayers and ceremonies and then feed that intent with the energy of our attention.
If you reverse your shoe tying order, what happens will be a function of how you think and feel about it. If you feel you've sinned or gone against your lucky stuff, the energy vibe you project from yourself will shift negatively, expecting harm, and the world, which responds to the totality of you, will more easily visit you with undesirable results.
Of course, no supernatural explanation is needed for the above scenario because for many negative repercussions, subtle clues are enough. When somebody expects rejection or drags their tail, some folks are quick to sense it and pile on.
but back to your coincidence explanation, I think it's disingenuous and you know it. Likely you are crossing the line into making arguments to fit your idea that there is no spiritual anything. Seeing kids in two places in the same town is a far cry from events linking in two different states altogether. You criticize the fantastic explanations of people who want to believe religion then you should use reasonable examples in your own writing.
Everything has a rational explanation if you are willing to stretch far enough.
Psychic powers and fortune telling? Your debunking of it was too simplistic and complete with assumptions. While there may be several possibilities in how an energy or event might manifest, some fortune telling/prophecy may only be possible if there are events that are karmically inevitable (substitute destiny terms from other religions for 'karma' if you want) That being the case, it's hardly self-selecting if you know the future and can't avoid it. An Indian astrologer told me two years ago I would injure my ankle around the fall of 2009. A lot of good that advice did me! (except to keep up on my insurance)
now there are amazing astrologers and lame ones. Most are lame but here's some coincidence. A friend walks into the astrologer, who doesn't know her or her real name. He tells her everything about her past, including things so sensitive her friends don't know. He says her brothers have 8 kids between them and she corrects him and says 7. He says "one died" and she says "yeah, forgot about that." Just one tiny example among hundreds.
You have to really stretch to explain that with science, thus, you'll think I'm nuts, or she's nuts or a denial of this whole bit of information will just gloss it over. Christians will think demons are responsible even though it was astrologers who visited Christ at birth and they have their own prophets.
We are destined to live thinking what we want to think until we open to what we find without projecting
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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it's not a stretch...
it just doesn't happen the way you think it does... it's a card trick, and a well known one at that.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 26, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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Seeing kids in two places in the same town is a far cry from events linking in two different states altogether. You criticize the fantastic explanations of people who want to believe religion then you should use reasonable examples in your own writing.
Is it that far a cry? In relation to what? I'm not critizing so much as asking for a little critical thinking.
I once went on a cross country trip by car in '76 to see America during the bicentennial with my family. After many weeks of travel we arrived in DC and to the Smithsonian Museum. Inside I walked alone towards the moon rock display. The rock was suspended by rods in a frame of sorts so that you could actually touch it. As my focus on the rock drifted from the rock to the person looking at it from the other side, I recognized the face of my best friend Tom looking at the rock. He had flown with his parents to DC the day before. We chatted a bit and he had to go on with his folks. Cool, amazing coincidence. Enjoyed it. Cross country events linked. Big deal.
Everything has a rational explanation if you are willing to stretch far enough. and can have a supernatural one if you're willing to go farther.
You want athiest/agnostics to see your point of view (god/designer/spirit force whatever, everywhere, all the time) and I do, but you get cranky when we suggest another way of looking at it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 26, 2009 - 01:09pm PT
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Shoe tying is a card trick? What? I didn't understand Ed's question in the first place and now I'm really confused! Anyway, I'd say that finding a beloved, lost dog is a lot more significant than how you tie your shoes. I think it is also a lot more meaningful than bumping into a friend you weren't even thinking about.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 26, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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I wear flip-flops and miss my dog...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 26, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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Truth For Life; Alistair Begg
The Incarnation Explained by Jesus, Part A
Scriptures: John 6:25
For many people, the story of Christmas stops at the birth of Jesus. But if we consider all that happened at the ancient scene in Bethlehem, we’d discover that our Savior’s birth fits into God’s plan for all generations.
http://www.truthforlife.org/broadcasts/2009/12/26/incarnation-explained-jesus-part-a/
December 26, 2009
The Foundation of the Covenant of Grace
The last Adam.
1 Corinthians 15:45
Jesus is the representative head of His people. In Adam every heir of flesh and blood has a personal interest, because he is the covenant head and representative of the race when considered under the law of works; so under the law of grace, every redeemed soul is one with the Lord from heaven, since He is the Second Adam, the Sponsor and Substitute of the elect in the new covenant of love.
The apostle Paul declares that Levi was in the loins of Abraham when Melchizedek met him: It is a certain truth that the believer was in the loins of Jesus Christ, the Mediator, when in eternity the covenant settlements of grace were decreed, ratified, and made sure forever.
Whatever Christ has done, He has accomplished for the whole body of His Church. We were crucified in Him and buried with Him (read Col. 2:10-13), and to make it still more wonderful, we are risen with Him and even ascended with Him to the seats on high (Eph. 2:6). It is in this way that the Church has fulfilled the law and is "blessed in the Beloved."#
She is regarded with satisfaction by the just Jehovah, for He views her in Jesus, and does not look upon her as separate from her covenant head. As the Anointed Redeemer of Israel, Christ Jesus has nothing distinct from His Church, but all that He has He holds for her. Adam's righteousness was ours so long as he maintained it, and his sin was ours the moment that he committed it; and in the same way, all that the Second Adam is or does is ours as well as His because He is our representative.
Here is the foundation of the covenant of grace. This gracious system of representation and substitution, which moved Justin Martyr to cry out, "O blessed change, O sweet permutation!" is the very groundwork of the Gospel of our salvation and is to be received with strong faith and rapturous joy.
#Ephesians 1:6
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Truth_for_Life/archives.asp?bcd=2009-12-25
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Q and A
Saturday, December 26, 2009 Must a person believe in the virgin birth in order to be saved? Does Jeremiah 10 describe the first Christmas tree? Should Christians teach their children about Santa Claus?
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_questions_and_answers/Archives.asp
Thru the Bible - Questions & Answers - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
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We are all of Adam, any one of us could have been born as anyone else, we are all the same, go the extra mile in someone else's feet, to see that it's true. We are of the earth alone apart from Jesus our Lord and Savior!
Gobee
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