Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
|
God frowns and then laughs at this whole discussion.
I know people like Ed and others will continue to frown upon my beliefs, but we'll see...we'll see.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
|
Don't anyone tell Klimmer that the three fabled wise men, aka Magi, were actually from Iraq, or maybe Iran. Parthia, that is. And they were heathens, too - probably Zoroastrians. But then, there's a lot of Zoroastrianism in christianism.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
|
God frowns and then laughs at this whole discussion.
Welcome to ST, God. Why the frown? Good about the laughs.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
|
I'm not frowning, I'm trying to understand...
...that can be difficult, and I am difficult and love a good argument... sometimes too much.
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
|
Jesus, Father, Spirit = 1
1+1+1 = God
You and me...
Yes Jesus loves me
The cow jumped over the moon
A tree is green, the sky is blue
With the eyes of a child, you can see
God is wonderful, wonderful, wonderful
God is love, love is God
All I need is God, God is all I need
Thank you for your love, your love for me
Jesus is Christmas, that My joy may be in you,
and that your joy may be full
All I am comes from the thy hand, the hand of thee
God loves you and me!
Gobee
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Merry Christmas *<((:-)
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
|
Merry Christmas and a happy new year to everyone on this thread. I hope this next year brings everyone the peace and happiness they desire.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
|
Here's a great example from another thread, of the mysteries of intuition vs. rational thought.
Girl is hiking in Arizona. Her beloved big white malamute dog is either lost or stolen. They spend two extra days in area hoping dog will return, but no luck. They finally begrudgingly leave the area to finish their 3 month road trip. A week later they are driving up the coast of California and she suddenly gets this urge to stop for a walk on the beach. While she's walking her dog comes galloping up and jumps on her. The people with the dog have some BS story and say its their dog but the affection belies their words. Kind of a few awkward moments then they leave, leaving the dog with its rightful owner. Mysterious things happen in this world.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1043618/Lost_gear_re-found_by_yourself
Whatever the explanation for happenings like this, I'm sure the one thing we can agree on, is how little we know about the workings of our minds or those of other sentient beings.
|
|
nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
|
how fun... Gobee is still posting the stuff that he brainwashes himself with and nobody reads.
almost 5K Norton. Good work.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2009 - 01:36am PT
|
I'd define Intuition as knowledge which comes as a transmission, a download so to speak, from a part of the mind or soul that we aren't rationally conscious of. The rational conscious mind is the tip of the iceberg and it's tough to pin down where these higher insights and sensitivities come from, whether from a higher quality of mind or whether that higher mind is just tuned to an even greater inspiration of Spirit.
‘The only really valuable thing is intuition.’
— Albert Einstein
‘I believe in intuition and inspiration; at times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason.’
— Albert Einstein
‘The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift.’
— Albert Einstein
‘The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don’t know how or why.’
— Albert Einstein
Peace
Karl
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2009 - 04:21am PT
|
bc-
You may be right, particularly if such a thing only happens once in a lifetime. When a person has them happen several times a week, particularly when spending a lot of time in prayer or meditation, then something else is going on.
Once in a while though, even the skeptic meets a master, usually Indian or Tibetan, who shakes his or her world view by producing so many intuitions, successful predictions, and scientifically unexplainable phenomena on a daily basis, that one is forced to re-evaluate.
Fortunately I met such people when I had just finished grad school, so I was able to be deprogrammed from all that dry rationality and see intuition in its proper place again.
|
|
bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2009 - 11:28am PT
|
producing so many intuitions, successful predictions, and scientifically unexplainable phenomena
Can you elaborate? Is there some literature or link I could access?
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2009 - 11:47am PT
|
Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel is always a good start. It's also an adventure story as she was the first westerner to enter Lhasa at the turn of the century disguised as an old deaf mute Tibetan. She trekked from China to Lhasa and then south to Sikkim. It will probably seem so fantastical to you that you will think it's all made up yet many Tibetans and western travelers to Tibet have experienced such things. Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramhansa Yogananda is another good one by the first Hindu Yogi to live for an extended period of time in the West.
I myself have known a Sherpa priest who was able to predict how many tourists were approaching the valley when they were about three days a way and describe in detail how many males and females, what they would look like and what they would be wearing. Sure enough they would come walking up the trail two or three days later just like he said. This in a place where the nearest electricity was 8 days away, the nearest phone 9 days away and no one in the village had a transistor radio, and of course there was no mail service. It also happened when no one in the village went up or down the trail and so could not have talked with anyone else (the nearest village was a day away). People in my village just shrugged it off saying such things were just normal for meditators of any skill.
Another time he told the villagers that he had a dream in which the handprint, footprints, and head print of a famous holy man prostrating himself before the local mountain goddess were imprinted on a piece of rock but the rock was buried. He told the village boys where to dig and sure enough, 3 feet down they found a flat rock with the prints he described and brought it to the surface, recognizing it as one of many sacred monuments in a sacred valley.
And finally, one day he asked me for antibiotic cream to help with a cut he had. He had whacked his hand with a machete while cutting firewood and the cut was almost to the bone on the underside, somehow missing the artery. I put cream on it and pulled it shut with gauze and adhesive tape as best I could, thinking he needed stitches. The next day he held up both hands to show me that his hand was completely healed, not even a scar, and thanked me again for the cream. I was dumbstruck as I knew something else had just taken place. Personally I have always thought he did that to try to shake me out of my grad school rationality!
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
|
The melding of Buddhism and Bon shamanism certainly provided David-Neel and others with fodder for a lot of ornamentalist prose, and yet, despite these parlour tricks, it's proven pretty helpless against Muslim and Chinese hegemony. Which is a sad thing, to be sure.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
|
I typed too much to bury my reply at the end of the page.
Merry Christmas!
Karl
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
|
Jan writes
Girl is hiking in Arizona. Her beloved big white malamute dog is either lost or stolen. They spend two extra days in area hoping dog will return, but no luck. They finally begrudgingly leave the area to finish their 3 month road trip. A week later they are driving up the coast of California and she suddenly gets this urge to stop for a walk on the beach. While she's walking her dog comes galloping up and jumps on her.
then BC writes
We don't know why she stopped. She may have liked the view or needed to take a break from driving and it just happened that the people who stole her dog were basically on the same road trip as she was, hence the chance meeting on the beach. What are the odds? Probably better than you think. I've seen the same people repeatedly over the course of a road trip. I'd put this in the coincidence columm. People often go straight for the "woo-woo" answer when a more logical one is staring them in the face.
Let's see, the girl loses her Dog in Arizona and finds it via a random stop on a California Beach... You think the odds aren't bad? What IS that more Logical answer. You chalk up things to "coincidence" because you just choose to do so.
It's not just religious people who believe what they want to believe and stretch to have events fit their worldview.
Which has taught those of us who have repeatedly seen something like miracles to shut up. If a story really defies a rational explanation, others immediate jump to the "you must be nuts" conclusion. There is NO WAY somebody who chooses to ignore the interconnnected spiritual linkages in life will be brought around by ANYTHING, until they are ready to see what they have been resisting. There is NO STORY, even their own, that will sway a person who is not ready.
I have a relative who has had a couple plain and definitive experiences that were detailed and couldn't have been projected or wishful thinking. They chose to totally ignore the implications of that even as they'd tell the story once in awhile.
We make our own worldview the way we please it. If your worldview hasn't changed much over your lifetime, that's because you aren't open or paying attention. I'm not saying everyone should wake up and say "I believe" but almost nobody is born with deep knowledge. Even the scientific worldview is mind boggling and extremely unlikely to our perception and common sense and those who hold it are often paying much lip service to it like a neo-con pays lip service to Christianity.
What's the REAL religion of most people? -The unconscious assumptions that are conditioned in us by our senses and upbringing.- Break free of that, one way or another, because it makes you a sheep about far more than just believing in Religion or not.
PEace
Karl
edit: Opps, now Jan's crazy. Just when I enjoyed her posts so much!
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
|
True enough Karl, there clearly are more things in heaven and earth, but I've always been partial to this way of looking at it:
"Chains of more-than-coincidence occur so often in my life that, if I am forbidden to call them supernatural hauntings, let me call them a habit. Not that I like the word 'supernatural'; I find these happenings natural enough, though superlatively unscientific."
Robert Graves, The White Goddess
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
|
Yosemite...
It's almost as if their was a Higher Power at work that basically said that looks really good right about there, and just put a little bit of grass right there, and just put Oak, and Oak woodland right through there, and that's it that's perfect! Because it doesn't seem that anything was haphazard, it seems like this was designed to overwhelmed and to leave people awestruck!
Shelton Johnson
Park Ranger, Yosemite National Park Service
ALMOST? Thank You Jesus!
John 1:3, All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
I Thank you that I was one of the lucky one's who got to climb on those granite walls!
HOW FIRM A FOUNDATION
By John Rippon, 1787
How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,
Is laid for your faith in His excellent Word!
What more can He say than to you He hath said,
You, who unto Jesus for refuge have fled?
In every condition, in sickness, in health;
In poverty’s vale, or abounding in wealth;
At home and abroad, on the land, on the sea,
As thy days may demand, shall thy strength ever be.
Fear not, I am with thee, O be not dismayed,
For I am thy God and will still give thee aid;
I’ll strengthen and help thee, and cause thee to stand
Upheld by My righteous, omnipotent hand.
When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
The rivers of woe shall not thee overflow;
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,
And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.
When through fiery trials thy pathways shall lie,
My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;
The flame shall not hurt thee; I only design
Thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.
Even down to old age all My people shall prove
My sovereign, eternal, unchangeable love;
And when hoary hairs shall their temples adorn,
Like lambs they shall still in My bosom be borne.
The soul that on Jesus has leaned for repose,
I will not, I will not desert to its foes;
That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,
I’ll never, no never, no never forsake.
[It] was the favorite of Deborah Jackson [sic; her name was actually Rachel] President Andrew Jackson’s beloved wife [he was President-elect at the time], and on his death-bed the warrior and statesman called for it. It was the favorite of Gen. Robert E. Lee, and was sung at his funeral. The American love and familiar preference for the remarkable hymn was never more strikingly illustrated than when on Christmas Eve, 1898, a whole corps of the United States Army Northern and Southern, encamped on the Quemados hills, near Havana [Cuba], took up the sacred tune and words.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!