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Krease
Gym climber
the inferno
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Dec 22, 2017 - 10:02pm PT
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What will class warfare look like in this country, I wonder. Once automation displaces large segments of society and no back-up plan has been enacted to compensate for this paradigm shift, what will happen? Will the rich get eaten, or guillotined like the French aristocracy? With all the guns floating around, what would true social upheaval look like in the US?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
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All this talk about taxes brings to mind the current book by T.R.Reid "A Fine Mess" Here is his interview by Terry Gross on NPR:
GROSS: You talk about countries where everybody does their taxes in, like, 15 minutes because it's that simple.
REID: You know, I was in the Netherlands on March 31 - their tax day is April 1 - talking to a - you know, a manager. He makes about 200,000 a year. He has a whole panoply of investments, two kids in private schools, two mortgages. He'd have to fill out 12 forms in the United States.
And I said, Michael, how do you do your taxes? They're due tomorrow. He says, well, I pop a beer. I go online and see if the government's got the numbers right. And if they do, I hit a button. Takes five minutes. He says, but you know, sometimes I start checking the numbers. You - he says, you know, you start checking the numbers, it could take almost half an hour just to pay your taxes. He was outraged.
https://www.npr.org/2017/04/03/522440141/author-looks-to-other-countries-to-rethink-americas-complicated-tax-code
He has some very innovative ideas----already used in many countries----that could markedly improve our tax system.
I heard him describe in another interview about another country that sends you a card with the important numbers. If you agree, you do nothing, and you've filed your taxes.
The fact is, the gov't generally has all of the important numbers, already.
So here's my proposal: We use the "great experiment of the states", and take a blue state, like Calif, and completely re-write the tax code. You pay a percentage of your AGI off your 1040. That's it. No deductions, no credits, no nothing else. Revenue neutral.
In fact, change the tax day to May 1st, have the State collect the AGI off your federal return, and send you a bill. Your check is your tax return.
If California along did this, the other state residents would riot to have it. Eventually, we could have such a program at the federal level.
What we just passed was not tax simplification, only manipulation.
Boo Hoo, think of all the tax attorneys out of work.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Dec 22, 2017 - 11:52pm PT
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Krease wrote: "What will class warfare look like in this country[?]"
at least with regards to the near and medium [25ish year] future, i suspect this is just "wish" or "cataclysm" desiring thought [depending on the perspective].
the human energy that might result in domestic class warfare has always been near impeccably turned towards the "other" through the u.s', at least, last 150 or so year history.
to think it would/could actually be turned towards the root of the u.s' love of amway style multi level marketing meets rent seeking structure ["i'm going to have my money make money for me"] is something held onto mostly by only the youthful and the romantic. [no disrespect intended if you are one of these: i hope your generation/heart proves me wrong]
and so my, admittedly somewhat cynical, heart suspects the successful salespeople will keep selling their pulled up by the bootstraps [tm] stories [because they are often in part true] while the new recruits will fail to see that the amway-mlm-like/u.s' corporatic-"democratic" structure is finely tuned to skim as much from the structurally necessary lower rungs on the pyramid [without causing outright revolt as is near-cataclysmically possible], and so it is a structural fact that due to no fault of their own, the mass of folks will be efficiently skimmed/stolen from until the day they die [even though this is in part also true].
and when the class pressures get really intense, one just needs to scare up some spooky 6:00 pm bedtime stories 'bout whatever "other" is on the menu du jour.
shIt if a nobel peace prize winner can order the murder of individual overseas americans and use tactics that statistically kill foreign civilians 50% of the time, there's not too much that americans collectively don't have the stomach for [as long as it doesn't happen on american soil].
and now that the corporatocracy/fcc just gave up net neutrality [which has as much philosophical grounding as letting fuel companies charge you less for gas only if you drive a ford or electricity suppliers charge you less only if you use sony... i.e. those who confuse google ads with net neutrality have as much understanding of what just happened re net neutrality as the mass of wo/men do re what is happening in syria right now] there is even less long term likelihood that we will collectively be able to move out of our dopamine and like driven perspective bubbles.
and so the u.s., as far as i can tell, will continue to walk a line that moves from just this side of outright social instability to being pulled back from the brink, as it has from the dirty thirties, to the upheaval in the sixties to the current flirting with economic instability due to the doubling down on repeatedly proven economic idiocy [rapidly increasing federal deficit/debt due to ballooning defense and tax cuts that primarily benefit the rich, while reducing social spending during a time of some of the largest economic inequality since the late 1920s]:
and that's because when it's not the "other" of the alcoholics, or the drug "fiends", or the "terrorists" [tm], or central american communists, or al queda, or isis, or the syrians, or the vietnamese, or the north koreans, or the iraqis, or the mexicans, or the ...
you needn't worry: there will always be a new boogeyman to keep you/us distracted.
and so yes, the current structural madness is nothing new, even if it is alarming in its newness.
and so the responding/reactionary madness will likely be nothing new, even if it will be equally alarming in its new and intentionally influenced projection/misdirection.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Dec 23, 2017 - 07:25am PT
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Isis , drug fiends , and the Nahoogeyman wall of text...
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 23, 2017 - 11:23am PT
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It's not about the Middle Class, it's about pleasing the GOP donor base.
Fritz, I'd love to see the donations made by these corporations to Democrats during the same period. Especially GS and the tech sector entities. Guarantee you they are far, far higher. To be fair, why don't you go ahead and provide. Your post is pure histrionics--something you are very good at--without any context.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2017 - 11:42am PT
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Guarantee you they are far, far higher.
Actually, when you make the statement, it is up to you to provide the proof, not of someone else to provide evidence of your assertion.
How can you guarantee something of which you are ignorant?
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 23, 2017 - 03:29pm PT
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Ken, take a look at the graph again. Who gives a f*#k about 1990? (Also, look at the source at the bottom right. Sanders campaign.) Fritz's premise was that Trump and Republicans were bought and paid for by the corporations listed in exchange for lowering the corporate tax rate. Nonsense. I suspect you're smarter than this--not sure about the others here. If Fritz wanted to make his case effectively, he should have posted donor data from relevant/recent election cycles. He didn't. My confidence level is 100% on this because, a.) Hillary Clinton took in more than 2x donations from corporations than did Trump; and, b.) Hillary's top donors, 7/10, were all hedge fund/financial/tech sector. Trump, 3 of 10. But by all means, please, continue hand-picking data and dragging it through the membrane of the bubble you live in. You have three more years of Trump to endure, and all the whining in the world ain't gonna change it.
https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contributors?id=n00000019
https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contributors?id=n00023864
By party, top contributors:
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php
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Krease
Gym climber
the inferno
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Dec 23, 2017 - 03:34pm PT
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Lituya, explain Scott Pruitt please. Talk about a corporate shill...
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 23, 2017 - 03:50pm PT
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We will not be enduring Trump for three years, that much I can safely declare. While many would prefer he was already gone, his time is definitely coming. Legal process takes time, and only a fool would befollowing the goings-on of this situation and not realize that this is not "fake news" or a "democrat jealousy campaign."
I realized this morning that Brad Parscale hasn't seemed to have been interviewed by Team Mueller yet. I guess he's saving him to enjoy as an after-dinner aperitif.
If NOTHING else, Donald Trump is going to suffer either a very serious stroke or heart attack, and I'd wager than will happen within the next 8 months. While I don't wish ill health on anyone, it's impossible to look at video of the man and not see his state of health is a ticking time bomb.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 23, 2017 - 04:07pm PT
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Lituya! Re your first complaint about my post, expressing my outrage over the Republicans pretending their tax-bill was done for the good of Middle-Class America, when it was actually done for the good of their corporate & wealthy donor base:
Your post is pure histrionics--something you are very good at--without any context.
Guilty as charged!
his·tri·on·ic
adjective: histrionic 1.
overly theatrical or melodramatic in character or style.
"a histrionic outburst"
synonyms: melodramatic, theatrical, dramatic, exaggerated, stagy, actorly, showy, affected, artificial, overacted, overdone; More
informalhammy, ham, campy
noun
plural noun: histrionics; noun: histrionic 1.
exaggerated dramatic behavior designed to attract attention.
"discussions around the issue have been based as much in histrionics as in history"
Thank you! I'm always happy to offend your limited sensibilities.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 23, 2017 - 06:03pm PT
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We will not be enduring Trump for three years, that much I can safely declare. While many would prefer he was already gone, his time is definitely coming. Legal process takes time, and only a fool would befollowing the goings-on of this situation and not realize that this is not "fake news" or a "democrat jealousy campaign."
Not jealousy, rather, urban arrogance. And if you're spending too much time on CNN, well, this might explain your confidence.
In any event, as libs were so fond of reminding us while Obama was side-stepping the Constitution during his last four years, elections have consequences. So three more years it shall be. You'll survive. And if Trump meets the health fate you hope for (nice), then I'm ok with Pence. But be careful what you wish for. ;-
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 23, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
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Not jealousy, rather, urban arrogance. And if you're spending too much time on CNN, well, this might explain your confidence.
I grew up in a Wisconsin farmhouse, and live half year in a cabin with no electricity and the other half in a van. This week I am doing a house sit so, voila!, I have been able to watch a television for the first time since 2014. To suggest I "spend too much time on CNN" is like me suggesting you get your news from Fox.
My confidence is in having a half a brain as to how things work. Now believe me, I am not entirely confident that our country won't be brought to its knees(and anyone who would wish for that, no MATTER their party affiliation) is naive and living the "it can't happen here" fantasy. But yeah, I am fairly confident that Donald Trump will not be the one handing over the White House keys in 2020.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
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Americans are bitching about these clowns while the US criminals the past few years spent 7 trillion dollars in those phony made up wars in the Mideast.
Good grief ......
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 23, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
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If you don't know how this can be, perhaps it really is you who needs to broaden their sources of information. For what it's worth, I am getting mine from:
Former Staffer at White House who has particiated in three presidential campaigns(D)
Former prf at Naval Academy who was also head of Signals CounterIntel at NSA(R)
Former member of Parliment
NY Civil Rights Attorney(D)
Wow, you're pretty well connected for someone who lives disconnected. In a van. :rolleyes:
Oh and about Pence. He's not going to be the stand in, unless Trump goes down before Mueller bags him . Neither is Ryan, nor McConnell. The next in line who won't be going down the treason easel drain is Hatch.
Please, do tell! Sounds like you're privy to some sort of plot? How exciting!
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 23, 2017 - 09:13pm PT
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Who the hell are "you" to :roll eyes:?
At least there are a few dozen people on this forum who can actually confirm I am who I am. Is there a single other person on this forum who would post to confirm they have actually met you in real life
edit: as for any "plot," it's nowhere near as tinfoil hat or conspiracy theorist as you want to imagine. It's all very simple, and has already been shown: They each knew that Mike Flynn had been working with Russia while they publicly claimed to be unaware. They lied. To the FBI. To Comey. To the public. They covered up. They f*#ked themselves.
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Former Staffer at White House who has particiated in three presidential campaigns(D)
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