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MH2
climber
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Aug 17, 2014 - 09:57am PT
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I wouldn't trust any of those guys around my cat, but points well laughed with.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 18, 2014 - 08:00am PT
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eeyonkee, that's a swell idea. If you do...
(1) I'd enjoy it (I'm pretty sure) and I'd try to contribute.
(2) I wouldn't always expect it on the first page, nor do I think I'd want to either. I think it could be a more successful thread if it weren't probably. Personally I'd rather see meaningful content than number of posts or bumps every day, let alone every hour, which seems to be the measure of success for many a thread and poster here.
"I think free will is an important subject and I think people are powerfully confused about it and I think this confusion actually matters." - Sam Harris
Could end up just another can of worms though, lol!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 18, 2014 - 08:05am PT
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"I think free will is an important subject and I think people are powerfully confused about it and I think this confusion actually matters." - blueblocr
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Aug 18, 2014 - 10:29am PT
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Thanks, HFCS, but I decided against starting a new thread. I think that I'll just continue to study this subject on my own. Thanks again for the heads up on the Dennett/Harris debate. Dennett's critique will be my starting point for a deeper understanding.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 18, 2014 - 11:20am PT
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Roger that, don't want to own it, lol! I understand completely.
Hey in your Dennett-Harris analysis, don't forget to check out Jerry Coyne's blog about it.
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/sam-harris-vs-dan-dennett-on-free-will/
This subject more than any other (I mean apart from having fun) defined my life path since age 18-20, when I gathered together the implications of physics and chemistry underlying all of biology and weighed those against the conventional / traditional views in which I was raised by my family and culture. (Shocking!)
Coyne's critique was pretty much mine. Harris and Dennett are supposedly friends, very good friends, so it was surprising to read Dennett so snarky in places toward Harris when it didn't seem he needed to be.
They're both on the same page regarding living things as automata, in other words "deterministic" in a causal sense (not predictive sense). Their disagreement, imo, concerns (a) varieties of "free will" as a word with Dennett wanting to preserve it for those kinds ("varieties") that are free (e.g., from demons, tumors and other medically-defined disorders, bad influences from friends, control freaks, etc.) and also (b) just how much to emphasize (else, dwell on) people as fully-caused, fully mechanistic automata, esp taking into account levels of understanding across public or society, in the interest of a healthy and wholesome civilization.
Like Harris said, it's a tough row. Way more challenging than evolutionary theory.
.....
In my experience, insofar as one gets around to concluding all living things including people are automata, it's not healthy - that is, "spiritually hygienic" - to dwell on it any more than death. In my experience that's the key. No dwelling on it. (Unless it's your work, lol!) Discover it by way of edu. Come to terms with it. File it away. Know where to find it. Use it as necessary to solve life problems. File it away. My two cents.
re: automata not being responsible for their conduct
There's always going to be that dilemma, that balancing act, between (a) compassion (there but for the grace of the gods go I) and (b) accountability (for community or social sake) that people, even amongst themselves, are going to argue over endlessly. Not wise to "dwell" too much on this side of it either, beyond the practical.
Climbing and other adventure sports - that's the cure. One of them.
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re: automata, automated biology
My two cents: Don't emphasize them, let alone dwell on them. (In the current milieu, esp.) Instead? Emphasize can-do power. All living things have it. Honey badgers to humans.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 18, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
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Hmmmm. This seems to be one of your most coherent and sensible threads yet fructose. Does this mean you're mellowing or that ( LOL ) I've come under your spell and lost my free will?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 18, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
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FM: Your reasoning is silly. Specious at best. Tell that to Bill Gates, remember him? He's chosen to essentially sidestep government entirely, to get shiht done. The most valuable company on the planet? Run by a useless nerd by the name of Steve Jobs. These are but the two most visible examples.
You are probably making claims outside of your area of expertise, I suspect.
Most technicians believe that if you get the task right, then everything works out well. They forget there are people involved, and people are not technical. They are emotional, social, and largely irrational. Gates was a megalomaniac and micromanager, as was Jobs. Both companies have been taken to court repeatedly for monopolistic anticompetitive behaviors.
How would you suggest we define great organizational leaders? By their technical skills?
(BTW, you've chosen two out of tens of thousands leaders. That would constitute a rather small set of exceptions--if indeed they are.)
Value, as you've chosen to draw it out, is simply stock price X number of shares. Is that your final answer or definition of what is good, worthy, and productive when it comes to leadership and enterprise?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 18, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
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I don't know, Jan, I think I've been pretty consistent throughout. But I guess it depends on the company you keep.
(The company around here has been pretty considerate lately, that's my sense of it. No name calling, etc. How refreshing, huh?)
Then again, if I'm not being as "annoying" (cf: "mellow") as Dawkins or Harris, I suppose it's arguable I'm not doing my job, lol!
Life is a project and progress is hard.
Here, one a little less harsh, more exquisite...
Courtesy of ISS via Caroline Porco, another personal hero.
P.S.
No worries, Jan, you've got your free will. It's (1) free of demonic possession, (2) free of the influence, I'm sure, of any control freaks out there, (3) free of neural disorders. That's all pretty HUGE, I'd say, plenty to be grateful for!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 18, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
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It's (1) free of demonic possession, (2) free of the influence, I'm sure, of any control freaks out there, (3) free of neural disorders. That's all pretty HUGE, I'd say, plenty to be grateful for!
Free?....? Ha! Your determined!
You just don't want to DWELL on it. Or atleast you don't want anyone else to?
A "cause and effect" tumor in the brain that make someone commit murder. Some would call that a "demonic possession"!
When someone's posts can be predicted by following Sam Harris's blog, that someone could be called mind controlled!
Someone that doesn't answer to their own guilt conscious and commits murder, because he believes there is no conscious. Could be considered as having a neural disorder!
BTW, thats an awesome picture!
This message has been deter minded by
Will Freely
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 19, 2014 - 08:00am PT
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A tough row to hoe? Tougher than evolutionary theory?
Check out this article, regarding "free will" and how ridiculous (if not annoying) Sam Harris is, lol! Should give even more sense of it, how tough it is, how tough it will be / would be.
http://www.examiner.com/article/sam-harris-should-be-called-out-for-illogical-stupidity-pretending-to-be-science
Found it after googling "neuronal weather pattern" a phrase Harris used in his "free will" lecture on YouTube that caught my ear because I too in past times had referred to / conceived of brain states (brain circuitry states) as similar to "weather" states in their causal automaticity.
Ms. Margo is a textbook example of somebody who misunderstands science and/or the language of science (and thus Harris too) concerning an extremely complex / delicate and tricky subject due to inexperience or uneducation.
Zeus and Hera help us.
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re: automata and justice
"Our system of justice should reflect our understanding that each of us could have been dealt a very different hand in life."
It should? It shouldn't?
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The urge for retribution... seems to depend upon our not seeing the underlying causes of human behavior. -Harris
I'd go further...
The urge for retribution... seems to depend upon (1) our not seeing the underlying causes of human behavior, (2) our innate impulses and sentiments (in this case, relative to others).
So it's rather a pickle. (Yet another one.)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 19, 2014 - 09:04am PT
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The urge for retribution... seems to depend upon (1) our not seeing the underlying causes of human behavior, (2) our innate impulses and sentiments (in this case, relative to others).
doubtful, probably more to do with the Nash equilibrium in such a "game" where "tit-for-tat" is the winning longterm strategy.
I find HFCS' arguments to be very loose, and akin to "belief," the belief that there is a solution, some solution, based on science... it's quaint, but it would be more interesting were HFCS did some of the harder work in fleshing out the science. Reading the popular literature maybe a start, but digging deeper, practicing, is where the action is...
...on that note, here's a speculation in the NYTimes today... not just talking about it, but trying to figure it out...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/science/our-microbiome-may-be-looking-out-for-itself.html
it is a bit humorous that we might think something that lives on us does do for its own benefit with surprise... once again, human economics is really just a subfield of ecology, and ecology is all about the relationship of an organism with the environment, a relationship that provides the energy to sustain that organism.
we might not just be a pimple on the ass of the universe, that pimple on our ass might actually be an apt Swiftian metaphor...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 19, 2014 - 09:07am PT
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Ouch!
Only after you do "the harder work" regarding R=E/I in non-ohmic pn devices, lol!
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"The urge for retribution... seems to depend upon (1) our not seeing the underlying causes of human behavior, (2) our innate impulses and sentiments (in this case, relative to others)."
doubtful...
Seriously, now, where is EdH coming from, how could he find fault with such a simple, largely noncontroversial statement put forth mostly for context. Weird.
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Better: Don't critique me, I'm just a climber. Much more interesting would be your critique of Sam Harris ala his "Illusion of Free Will" online lecture. I'd esp enjoy it if you'd articulate it in non-energy physics terms, btw, too. I'm sure I speak for many... that would be interesting. There could be some great insight there (one way or another).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 19, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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silly me...
...you seemed to take some offense that your "knowledge" of electronics was questioned. Maybe you could explain what a pn junction is, and how it works? and the number of times you've used it in circuits you've designed.
but yes, you don't seem to be very deep. Maybe that's just my impression, but your understanding appears to be gleaned from a myriad of books in the popular literature authored by "significant" people who you quote with the intent of transferring their authority to your arguments.
but do carry on (you will, no doubt).
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 19, 2014 - 09:21am PT
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Yes, silly you. Electronics is not your wheelhouse, Ed. With all due respect. I used to manage an electronics design lab, I've wired up pn junctions manifested in diodes, transistors, ICs measured in hundreds of hours. Your way over your head on this one, trust me. :)
No, I freely acknowledged earlier on in my response to you concerning Ohm's Law (which, btw, wasn't even the core pt of the discussion) that the latter (the term) might have a textbook definition that differs from a more loose practical lab definition (where it's synonymous with I=E/R) which holds for pn junctions, incandescent lamps, etc. btw.
Your correcting me regarding "Ohm's Law" was akin to a noob climber correcting Largo calling nuts "wires." Or a noob skier correcting a more experienced skier calling moguls "bumps."
Sorry for the dust-up, it's all pretty trivial actually. I must be bored this hour, huh? :)
but do carry on (you will, no doubt).
Don't we all, lol!
.....
Still, upon re-read, how could EdH respond with "doubtful" to such a straight-forward statement regarding "urge for retribution." Surprising is all.
And of course the impulses or sentiments I mentioned would be the result of evolutionary game theory (in part, in terms of tit for tat, etc.).
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2014 - 09:37am PT
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Found it after googling "neuronal weather pattern" a phrase Harris used in his "free will" lecture on YouTube that caught my ear because I too in past times had referred to / conceived of brain states (brain circuitry states) as similar to "weather" states in their causal automaticity.
Ms. Margo is a textbook example of somebody who misunderstands science and/or the language of science (and thus Harris too) concerning an extremely complex / delicate and tricky subject due to inexperience or uneducation.
----
As he's worked overtime to establish, on the one had, Fruity conflates and dumbs down the process to the few catagories he understands, then accuses others of not grasping the fine nuances of his reasoning.
Anyone who has done brain mapping with EEGs or qEEG can tell you that measuring an electrical signal is going to look like a storm. But what's lost on Fruity is that the storm and being sentient of that storm (content, qualia, etc.) are not selfsame. This might seem like a needless distinction till we realize much of the scientif heavy lifting involves discovering and isolating the componests of some thing or phenomenon and investigating it in depth by all and every means. When we give sentience - as opposed to content ("brain circuitry states" in Fruitcake's wonkly language) - short shrift, we end up with vapid statements like, "sentience is what the brain does."
Imagine saying that gravity is what an avalanche does, and leaving it at that - and calling that science.
As Ed has mentioned, when pressed, or looked at with any acuity, Fruity's "science" is merely a fool's platform for him to pimp simplistic half-truths as facile, self evident "science," while publically bungholing his boytoy, Samuel Harris.
At least attempt to add something NEW to the conversation, as opposed to just griniding on the same old bone al la Abrahamic religion.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 19, 2014 - 09:39am PT
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Hey, welcome back, Ol Fluffer! Come to think of it, why don't you take over for Fruitcake, he's had enough.
But in doing so, just remember... your issues are with science (not Harris or Fruitcake). Chow time.
All hail the EEG!!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2014 - 11:16am PT
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I haven't been involved in brain mapping stuff since the 1990s but modern neurofeedback - a biofeedback model that that uses real-time displays of brain activity — while it used to use mostly electroencephalography (EEG), has gone on to employ hemoencephalography (HEG) or functional magnetic resonance imagery (fMRI) as modalities to teach self-regulation of brain function. I mentioned EEG only as an example of "storm" style electrical output, not as a modern example of NF.
PET scans and all sorts of other devices are used in this work provided one has access to the gear, which in many cases is extremely expensive. Curiously enough, while micro investigations are turning up new info per the brain by the day, the business of consciousness, which many believe is a more global brain phenomenon, might well be better understood or at least measured by way of coherence and other brain markers first explored with the old EEGs. An EEG machine is really just an amplifier (artifact used to be a big problem, now largely solved). It's what modern software can do with the amplified measurements that determine how relevant and cutting edge the work really is. What makes the EEG an interesting tool is that it doesn't render a static picture, but rather charts the process in real time. And since brain process is dynamic, dynamic measuring devices are a boon.
JL
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Aug 19, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
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The urge for retribution... seems to depend upon (1) our not seeing the underlying causes of human behavior, (2) our innate impulses and sentiments (in this case, relative to others)
. . . doubtful, probably more to do with the Nash equilibrium in such a "game" where "tit-for-tat" is the winning longterm strategy
Crowd-sourcing the points of equilibrium? Curious statement, but thought provoking.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 19, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
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Jan, you might find this interesting...
http://www.theminimalists.com/sam/
"In our culture, spirituality seems to be synonymous with faith, so much so that it’s hard to untangle the term and use it in any other context. And yet you do so masterfully, taking a rational approach to spiritual life..."
re: spirituality
"This was one of those rare instances in which the right words simply don’t exist in English. Many of my fellow scientists object to the term “spirituality”— because it has been so often associated with a belief in immaterial souls or spirits, magic, and so forth."
"In evolutionary terms, we’re probably lucky that we’re not more miserable than we are. After all, our genes haven’t been sculpted with our subjective well-being in mind."
"Thinking is so useful that we are probably wired to do it continuously. Unfortunately, much of what we think about makes us miserable."
"Millions of years of hominid evolution have not prepared us for Instagram." lol!
"Mindfulness is an extremely useful tool for kids—just teaching them to be aware of their emotions is an important step toward basic sanity."
"Your mind is all you truly have. So it makes sense to train it."
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