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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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It must be sad to live in an isolated world where you blow so hard, insist you are right despite evidence to the contrary, and refuse to admit when you are clearly wrong. Sometimes, when I imagine the life the Chuff must lead, I feel sorry for him. Then I remember the one day I met him out climbing... yep, he was an angry little man, failing to engage in a friendly howdy-do at the crag or in the parking lot. Although the woman with him seemed pretty friendly. I figured this poor guy was just having a bad day. I guess it is easier for as#@&%es to live in isolation.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I took some of my own advice and will offer these additions.
San Diego County imports roughly 80% of it's water
Average for the five year period ending 2013:
20% from Bay-Delta**
63% from Colorado River
17% came from local supplies
**The Bay-Delta is a vast network of channels and islands at the convergence of the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers, which collect runoff from the Sierra Nevada.
Rainfall, by decade has been fairly consistent (note: last 'decade' is less than ten):
Here is something to think about: San Diego is 362 Sq Mi. In a one inch rainstorm, 6.2 Billion gallons falls on that surface. So in an average year, 62 Billion gallons of water is available for capture.
The city uses about 162 Billion gallons a year.
Currently, most of that rainwater is lost. They capture a lot in the mountains (and the average rainfall up there is closer to 40 in/year), but that which falls on the city itself, the 62 billion, is lost down the gutter.
That is a valuable resource, that could make a huge difference in what is happening in the southland.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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The Chief is making the following argument:
there is no gasoline available within 100 miles of his home. This is not a problem, because prior to 100 years ago, there was NO gasoline available within 100 miles, so that was the normal condition.
therefore, there is no gasoline problem in Bishop, with none available.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Why can't we do the obvious?
Build Delta Smelt grates that disallow them from being pumped though the canals,
Kill the "bullet train" project and avert all funds to irrigation and water resource protection.
All extra funds go back to the Cal Debt.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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wait....extra funds from a construction project?!? hahahahahaha!!
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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I was thinking that fires or the lack thereof may be an indicator of "drought-like" conditions.
The number of Cal Fire involved fires 2013 calendar year was about 475. The prior year was zero.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Currently, most of that rainwater is lost. They capture a lot in the mountains (and the average rainfall up there is closer to 40 in/year), but that which falls on the city itself, the 62 billion, is lost down the gutter.
San Diego is a sea port.
Where are you going to capture and impound all that water at?
Build barges in the ocean?
How effectively surface runoff can be captured and stored is completely an issue of topology and geology.
A good contrast are the San Gabriel and Los Angeles river drainage's.
Almost none of the water (relatively speaking)that falls on the San Gabriel drainage ends up in the ocean. Since it sits on a huge alluvial fan it's perfect for capturing all of it and settling it down into the aquifer.
the San Fernando Valley and the Los Angeles river drainage is geologically completely different. (it wouldn't make any difference as far as water capture and storage if all the concrete was removed.)
There's no way to get the water into the aquifer and most of it ends up in the ocean.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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How effectively surface runoff can be captured and stored is completely an issue of topology and geology.
Pretty sure you mean topography.
And we all know geology is just a theory based on the opinions of brainwashed fear mongers who hate the freedoms of Merkins.
(it wouldn't make any difference as far as water capture and storage if all the concrete was removed.)
That simply cannot be true. Perhaps it wouldn't make much of a difference... but it would certainly make some difference. Isn't most of the LA basin alluvial? Plenty of room for water those.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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So are the affinity laws I guess too.
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John M
climber
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The number of Cal Fire involved fires 2013 calendar year was about 475. The prior year was zero.
not sure where you got your information, but 2012 saw plenty of Cal Fire involved fires. Drought doesn't always mean more fires. A wet spring with lots of grass growing can mean a worse fire season. Lightning strikes play a big part in the number of range land fires. Along with how dry it is.
Long term drought means more dead trees. But dead trees don't necessarily equate to more fires. It means fires might get bigger, but not necessarily more of them. More fires usually means more grass and more lightning strikes. Other parts of the equation are how many wind events and how hot it is.
Considering how hot fires get, it seems weird to me that fires seem to be so affected by temperature, but that is the way it looks. Not sure if that is 100 percent true, but it sure looks that way. Fires seem to grow quicker on a 100 degree day versus a 70 degree day.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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by all means do not build a desalinization plant for agricultural purposes.
Farmers couldn't pay the power bill.
There are two major ones under construction though.
Poseidon in Carlsbad. (50 MGD)
http://poseidonwater.com/
As originally conceived it was supposed to benefit from off peak power from SONGS. That ain't happening now.
CARLSBAD, Calif. — The San Diego County Water Authority has agreed to buy at least 48,000 acre-feet of water from the plant each year for about $2,000 an acre-foot.
(For comparison MWD charges between $1,200 and $1,500 AF)
and the Cal American Water plant in Monterrey. (6-9 mgd)
http://www.watersupplyproject.org/overview
As a result of the proposed Monterey Peninsula Water Supply Project and all other rate changes proposed between now and 2018, a typical customer should expect an approximate 41% increase in their bill phased in over five years between 2013 and the end of 2018.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
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Hey there Pat!
natural resources and hydrology at Columbia College (then CJC in 1974-77)
Did you have Ross Carkeet as an instructor? I took an enviro class from him when I was there(90-92) doing the Fire program and then classes to go to a U. Man, I loved that lil school, bouldering and Manzanita101 between classes was priceless!
Cragar, I had Ross Carkeet for six classes, one of the best professors I have ever had.
Yeah, bouldering in the arboretum or when it was raining or snowing buildering on Manzanita 'Hall'. The overhang (balcony) kept one dry and the arches over the door ways into the cafeteria were a good workout if traversed.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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San Diego is a sea port.
Where are you going to capture and impound all that water at?
Build barges in the ocean?
Glad you asked! I think I posted it previously in this thread, but I'll post it again. This is how:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aQrZtG-LVg
How effectively surface runoff can be captured and stored is completely an issue of topology and geology.
Not completely. there are other issues, such as time for absorption.
A good contrast are the San Gabriel and Los Angeles river drainage's.
Almost none of the water (relatively speaking)that falls on the San Gabriel drainage ends up in the ocean. Since it sits on a huge alluvial fan it's perfect for capturing all of it and settling it down into the aquifer.
the San Fernando Valley and the Los Angeles river drainage is geologically completely different. (it wouldn't make any difference as far as water capture and storage if all the concrete was removed.)
There's no way to get the water into the aquifer and most of it ends up in the ocean.
Great example! Although totally wrong. the San Fernando Valley is the home of one of the largest aquifers in the state. Over 500 million acre feet, enough water for LA for 5 years. The soil is PERFECT for absorption. Two problems: the surface has largely been covered with impermeable surfaces. The water can't get there, and has been shunted into the LA river for removal to the ocean. The second is that a large part of the aquifer is contaminated, predominantely from aerospace industry. It's being cleaned up.
The issue is not one of geology, it is an issue of politics and money (and isn't that how we spell W-A-T-E-R in Ca?) The San Gabriel Valley has spent the money and built the infrastructure to capture the water. LA has not.
I actually sit on the committee that is involved in changing the water policy, and it is an exciting time!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Ah, NO!
Just because modern humans here in Cali have not experienced the reality of a true mega drought of 25-30 years or more that have and do occur regularly, does not mean they are NOT the norm.
As the studies clearly indicate, the past century was an atypical WET period and was NOT the norm for this region.
You all are using a time frame (135 or so years) which includes the atypical wet period as the norm. That period is miniscule compared to the Big Picture in time that in reality includes long extended period mega droughts that are the norm.
Sorry Chef,
you keep repeating yourself without making a point.
No one disputes the history of water that you are presenting. But you then go on to present that it therefore, is not a problem.
What you ignore is that in your historical setting, there are many tens of millions of people, many cities, one of the breadbaskets of the planet, even the state of California missing. None of it was here.
The relative lack of water has relatively little impact, when few people live in an area. Sadly, not so when it has been occupied by millions
Perhaps you are pining for the days when the deer and the antelope wandered downtown LA. Or no white men lived in Bishop. Pine away.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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The biggest buck deer I ever saw, judging by the size of its rack, was in the city of L.A. In Griffith Park, between the Observatory and the Greek Theatre.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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The number of Cal Fire involved fires 2013 calendar year was about 475. The prior year was zero.
not sure where you got your information, but 2012 saw plenty of Cal Fire involved fires.
That would be California Secretary for Natural Resources John Laird, April 4, 2014 in an inteview published in the San Diego Union Tribune. Perhaps the original statement should have included Mr. Laird's qualifier, "of any substance".
You look at the benchmarks — a year ago January we had zero fires of any substance that Cal Fire had to deal with. This year it was 473.
As to the rest of the commentary, I'll come back to it.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Take your complaints up with Mr. Laird, (if you get some free time from cleaning toilets). What I can't understand is why he is in the position he is in rather than you, since you appear to be so much more knowlegdable.
How did you count over 10? Did you grow another hand out your ass?
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Write to Mr. Laird and inform him of your discovery. I'm sure he'll appreciate your facts more than anybody reading this thread.
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John M
climber
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As I explained, the number of fires has more to do with lightning strikes, wind events, high temp days and spring rain for grass growth.
I have no idea where you guys are getting your information, plus I don't really understand how a fire is determined to be a cal fire or one of the other agencies that fight fires in California. From reading their website it says they protect state owned lands and private property. That leaves a lot of federal land and a lot of fires. Plus does a fire become run by one of the other agencies once it cross over onto national forest land or BLM land or National park land. How does that go into the statistics? I don't know.
This site says there were 7175 Cal fire incidents in 2013 and 4803 in 2012 with a 5 year average of 4851, I have no idea how to interpret that.
http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_stats?year=2013
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John M
climber
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Yes.. I understand that. My question was how they define a fire that starts out as theirs and moves to a combination federal response and cal fire response. They don't define their statistics on their website. At least I haven't been able to find it. For instance, on their own map they list fires that they say were not Cal Fire incidents, yet they responded. So the water is a bit murky.
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