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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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Planetary processes require no operator.
Again speculation and projectionism.
Living energy moves matter.
Thus the living energy is the operator.
There are two schools to the operator
1) The operator is ultimately impersonal.
2) The operator is personal (ultimately a person > GOD)
Your statement "Planetary processes require no operator." would kind of fall under impersonal.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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Just the concept of an 'impersonal operator' - aside from being twisted logic, incredibly speculative, and projectionally anthropomorphic - is an oxymoron. The universe needs no operator, impersonal or otherwise. 'We' are in no way necessary.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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I never mention any "WE" humans are necessary to ultimately operate the universe.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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The projection of an 'operator', impersonal or otherwise, is still a necessary (and seemingly almost desperate) projection of the 'us' implicit in 'we'.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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Never mentioned any "us" either.
You're the one projecting.
You are becoming very desperate now.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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I dunno, you're the one projecting a "Living energy" operator. "living energy" - and that doesn't sound anthropomorphically needy, if not completely desperate?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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I dunno,
You said it, you don't know, yet still you try and insist to put your speculative ideas onto and project/attribute them onto me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Thus the living energy is the operator
Does that look like projection of mine to you? It looks like some guy in Cali speculating on a keyboard to me.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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YOU DON'T KNOW
And you confirmed that.
And you confirmed that you're now guessing using the question mark.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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AND YOU DO?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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I never ever claimed "I" myself knows.
I've only paralleled and dovetailed the Veda, added nor subtracted from it, which you entirely reject.
There's absolutely nothing wrong to reject it on your part, and that was not the ultimate scope of my debate.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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Oh, I don't reject the wisdom contained in the vedas or any other scripture. What I reject is the fear they also contain and explicitly reject all notions of scripture-based authority.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 23, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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"How do you go about choosing how much and fully to Love? How do you direct this Love at God?"
That's a great question! What came first the chicken or the egg?
God chose us first, but we have to choose Him also!
Revelation 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
Ephesians 1:314, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Hebrews 11:6, And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
John 14:21, Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.
Matthew 15:8-9, This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
God Is Love
1 John 4:7-21, Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
*
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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"I don't reject the wisdom" ... and "explicitly reject all notions of scripture-based authority".
So wisdom is only relative to you.
And truth is only relative to you.
What's true today will be false in the future and then one day become true again and so on.
In the Veda it says 2 + 2 = 4 so you reject that authority ("explicitly reject all notions of scripture-based authority")
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
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I think we've already shown there's little to be gained going down the "who's authority" / "supreme authority" rabbit hole. Though I'd consider such an authority if all the world's relegions sat down and came up with a single, authoritative scripture and interpretation of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Hey Joe
Thanks for playing this thread today.
You were great ......
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 23, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
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Hey Joe
Where you goin' with that gun in your hand?
Settle down Prabhupada.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 23, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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no, I don't think you reject all authority, I think you certainly question authority... (now Werner's going to point out that that is a "authoritative statement", he likes to spiral around with these paradoxes to show that they don't make any sense).
Testing the authoritative statements can be done... and where it cannot be done the statements have little to add to the discussion. Karl says we all sense the mystical, even if we don't know what we are sensing or we deny it. But actually, Karl doesn't know that, he is inferring it from his own experience, and interpreting what others say in a way that supports his conjecture. It is very possible that different people perceive things differently, and have a quite diverse experience of consciousness. One that might exclude Karl's own personal experience.
Werner, too, has studied and worked at understanding through his own experiences, but though he can explain what he senses, perceives, etc, there is no real way of knowing if someone else actually has the same experience. It is possible that they do not, and actually cannot.
As both Karl and Werner point out, these things may transcend an explanation in our normal manner of description. It is also possible that this inability to explain renders the thing being explained entirely a creation of each person experiencing it.
Now one can further speculate that the personal experience is tapping into a larger reality, but there is really nothing that is provable or disprovable about it. The construction of the reality which contains this realm outside of the physical universe guarantees that no such proof, one way or the other exists.
So on what authority do we accept the possibility of such a reality? Karl would say we open our heart and calm our minds... and maybe Werner would agree... but that is the authority of our own feelings, our intuitions, our experience. And while we do use these things to provide some authority, we also know that these things can misleading.
Such a construction may be simply a mental construction with now more complexity than the complexity that gives rise to our consciousness, our thoughts.
One cannot prove or disprove that statement with regard to such discussions.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 24, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Ed writes
Karl says we all sense the mystical, even if we don't know what we are sensing or we deny it. But actually, Karl doesn't know that, he is inferring it from his own experience, and interpreting what others say in a way that supports his conjecture. It is very possible that different people perceive things differently, and have a quite diverse experience of consciousness. One that might exclude Karl's own personal experience .
I agree and disagree. (Mostly disagree) Let's say we lived in a prescientific society but some "Mystics" had looked within and noticed the physical heart beating and noticed how it was faster during excitement and exertion. They could claim an experience of the physical heart and also claim from their knowledge that other people were having experiences of the physical heart whether they knew of it's existence of not. The "spiritual" as the source of the very illumination of our awareness, is inescapable and part and parcel of everyone's experience. As the eternal subject, it's not the object of perception and so folks take it for granted but you can't be without it for a waking moment.
I only "agree" because there is some sense that we have no absolute proof that others actually exist (we could all be the complicated dream of the Highest Being) but that's a little trippy for us to have to deal with here, so I'll stand by my assertion that we all have levels of intuition and awareness of our Soul Level.
Ed writes
"
So on what authority do we accept the possibility of such a reality? Karl would say we open our heart and calm our minds... and maybe Werner would agree... but that is the authority of our own feelings, our intuitions, our experience. And while we do use these things to provide some authority, we also know that these things can misleading."
Actually, sure, we DO know these things can be misleading, but what happens when you clean out your emotional crap and calm your mind isn't so different than the progression of skills when you learn to climb. The more you learn, the more you "get it" and you can put that knowledge into action to the degree you have it. One thing leads to another and the results reinforce what you are doing and you get to higher and higher levels. Just like climbing, it's possible to think you are "better" than you are and you might take a whipper or get spanked.
With the experiential/mystical route to exploring Spirituality, the results don't have to wait until death and would be worth it even in a nihilistic reality. It's a fortuitous thing that at some point, it's possible to have some experiences that make it clear a higher power is always present everywhere.
Yes, it's possible to misinterpret, exaggerate and get deluded. It's possible to get hurt or killed climbing as well. It's the predilection of our human existence to explore WTF is about us, both scientifically and spiritually and there are pitfalls to both.
Thing is, if you look to clear up your heart and calm your mind with sincerity, and you get it a little wrong, it's still better than leaving the mess in chaos. If somehow it turned out to be a bust and we all become worm manure, nothing is lost eh?
PEace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 24, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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"How do you go about choosing how much and fully to Love? How do you direct this Love at God"
Gobee writes
That's a great question! What came first the chicken or the egg?
God chose us first, but we have to choose Him also!
Revelation 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened...
Nice answer. That's my experience. Our intentions navigate our experience of the world. We can choose to close things off or open to them.
I used to feel sort of dry-hearted. I prayed for an open heart and, after some time, I became a real sap.
I love being a sap. Love is the sauce that makes everything taste great.
PEace
Karl
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