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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Mar 11, 2016 - 10:30am PT
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Wbraun HDDJ doesnt even know who RAIDER NATION is.. total east coast snob!
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Mar 11, 2016 - 10:37am PT
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Because you're more brainwashed and ignorant then ever before your freedoms have been unknowingly eroded.
The only restrictions man has on his freedom are self-imposed.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Mar 11, 2016 - 10:55am PT
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Please enumerate the ways I am less free now than I would have been 50 years ago.
Compared to 50 years ago, here are some ways we are less free:
 Can't say "nigger," "kyke," "polack," spic" out loud any damned where we please, and have to plan ahead to avoid the risk of legal trouble for refusing to rent shelter or refuse services to people of color. That can be extremely restrictive for those who have enjoyed the liberty of those things previously.
Can't expect any female employee of your to just put up with sexual innuendo. Can't touch the women at work like you used to. Have to be really careful about even getting seen eyeballing a female employee's backside as she walks past, lest some as#@&%e accuse you of making the work environment unhealthy.
Can't drink yourself silly and drive home from the bar - or even your damned neighbor a few miles down the road's house!
Can't send your kid on a simple errand like buying a pack of cigs at the corner store.
Can't get away with telling your wife it's her duty to have sex with you and if she isn't in the mood, too damned bad - it's your right as a man to take it.
Can't dispose of old tires by burning them in the backyard, can't change your oil and dump the old oil on top of those tires about to get burned, can't even dump old gas out!
Practically being forced to disrobe just to get through the line to board a plane - can't have a damned cigarette during the flight, fer god's sake!!!!!!
On the plus side, about all we have gained is the ability to take nude pictures of people, and even shots that include sexual activity and not have to worry about the prude at the Kodak booth calling the police.
Oh, it goes on and on - those damned freedoms we once enjoyed and now chafe under the restrictive laws which govern them!
Now, I know that of course this is not what was really meant by less free - or at least I sure hope not! However, I have the feeling that if pressed, it really would come down to things like this that get some people feeling chaffed.
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Norton
Social climber
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Mar 11, 2016 - 10:57am PT
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Happie hits it clean out of the park !!!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Mar 11, 2016 - 11:07am PT
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Happie- Those were most of the things I could think of. Escopeta is an :effort: poster so there's no way he's going to come up with anything.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Mar 11, 2016 - 03:32pm PT
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Yeah, nice list Happi.
Certainly, I think the ever-present invasion of our privacy by large corporations and Gov't entities (like the NSA) makes us less free, in a real sense.
We are no longer free to protest multi-national corporations and entities like the WTO, look at what happened in Seattle where funds for war were diverted to squelch the protesters. Think of what the police state would do today if the Watts riots erupted now.
So yes, in some important ways, we are certainly less free today. But one way we are more free is the access to news, and social media, via the internet. Before, black folks would get shot, or choked, and nobody could say anything because it'd be your word against the cops. Now, people have video of these events.
The world turns, and there's the man, always trying to put their foot on the necks of the common folk.
"Real freedom." I'm still waiting for a definition of that one.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Mar 11, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
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I, too, have a real concern about the ramification of our reduced personal privacy. It's so easy to have incorrect information attributed to a database which we are included on, and that incorrect information can have far-reaching consequences we may not even be able to comprehend, simply because we cannot know what the future brings.
This was part of Snowden's message, if I understand correctly. Yet many of those who feel their freedom is being taken away also see Snowden as a traitor to the country.
I'm not sure how to back away from what is already established. Would it be possible to invent some sort of personal firewall from which we could allow the exit of data "as needed" and then tuck it back safely away for the protection of our privacy? Not the way things work at this point.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Mar 11, 2016 - 04:06pm PT
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Happi, one of the main freedoms that I see eroded as a result of NSA intrusion is not necessarily my own personal freedom (although the point you make is well taken), but rather the now near-impossibility for any conversation to be private.
It's now more difficult than ever for whistle blowers to remain anonymous. The concept of a "Deep Throat" existing is now scant--our Gov't agencies are able to piece together almost every conversation that you've had with anybody. Sure, you can still meet on park benches. But now that they're using drones on we US civilians, even that might not be as secretive as you might think. So, unless you can actually meet 1-on-1 somewhere, it's getting more and more difficult to rage against the machine.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Mar 11, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
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And on those long (and I'm sure insufferable to Escopeta) lists of how we are less free now than in the 50's & 60's, let's not forget that many states have mandatory seat belt laws.
Of course any true patriot doesn't use seat belts, just to show those government folks that they are true Americans, not sheep.
I was thus amused a few years back, when very conservative ex-Idaho Congresswoman Helen Chenoweth died because whe was driving without her seat belt in a one-car rollover in rural Nevada.
From Wikipedia: During her tenure, she was referred to by her most outspoken critics as a "poster-child for the militias," and in February 1995 she voiced the suspicion that armed federal agents were landing black helicopters on Idaho ranchers' property to enforce the Endangered Species Act, in line with a longstanding conspiracy theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Chenoweth-Hage
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Mar 11, 2016 - 04:36pm PT
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Was it last year that both John Nash and his wife were both killed in a car accident, and neither was wearing seatbelts?
I remember when I was a young driver, feeling they were so uncomfortable. And actually, the shoulder one in my van rides up too high and is really annoying. I am constantly puling it down away from my neck. But, I put it on - except when I am driving back from filling my water jugs at the preserve - I live dangerously on that 1/32nd mile stretch!
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 11, 2016 - 04:41pm PT
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A private business is required to disallow smoking in its establishment.
Our government is spying on us. And using the information to prosecute citizens for victimless crimes. (see next line) In truth, it would be hard to argue that the 4th amendment even still exists.
There are so many federal crimes that no one even knows how many there are (aka Three Felonies a Day) they abandoned the project to catalogue them all.
Violent criminals have a government guarantee that honest people are unarmed if they're away from their homes or businesses in many places.
Taxes, Fees, Licensing, Penalties, Estate Tax, Corporate Tax, Capital Gains Tax, Sales Tax, Permits, Payroll Tax, Alternative Minimum Tax, Fuel Tax, Cigarette Tax, Value Added Tax, Goods and Services Tax, Property Tax, Import Tax,. That’s just to name a few.
A landowner must pay thousands of dollars in fees, taxes and licensing just to build a toolshed on the property they own.
Forced to pay into a government supplied healthcare solution, regardless of whether they use it.
Forced to pay into a government savings program. EDIT: With no guarantee of even getting your principle back.
The logical equivalent of a standing army. (And they are open for business I might add.)
Protesting is now criminal (HR347 for reference)
The government is actively trying to limit legitimate businesses access to financial services (and they have a cool name for it - Operation Chokepoint)
Terrorists can be subdued, detained and even assassinated without due process. (I encourage you to research what qualifies as terrorist for your own edification)
The amount of goods and cash seized via Civil Asset forfeiture exceeds the amount of goods and cash stolen through legitimate burglaries (pun intended)
Americans are being arrested for having the audacity to film police officers
Peaceful protestors are being tear-gassed, beaten and arrested.
An adult US citizen required to wear a seat belt. A motorcycle helmet.
“a boot stamping on a human face—forever.”
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Mar 11, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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Wow, this is a tough one!!!
In the data collection vs. personal freedoms tug-of-war, I've been on the side of data collection thus far.
I have close friends that have been at the tip of the spear in Africa and the Middle East. There's no hyperbole here folks, when it comes to the threats we face- it's dire. I also have a cetain amount of trust in the current administration.
That said- the closer we get to a Trump or Cruz administration, I find myself letting loose of the rope and ready to join the other camp.
Admittedly, it sucks that Im willing deny my buddies the intel they need to fight the fight because the electorate is stoopid enough to consider such evil f*#kheads to run this country.
Evil f*#kheads like this will trash the Constitution every time in the name of national security, from "enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC"- ie.; professors, students, Democrats, socialist, unions, environmentalists, protesters, occupiers, Arabs, non-Zionists jews, pot smokers, vegans, non essential government entitiess such as the EPA, DOE, FEMA, HUD, Social Security, Medicaid, NASA, NOAA...
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Mar 11, 2016 - 04:46pm PT
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Happie
That was a great post. Very insightful and humorous.
I am of the school of thought that see's liberty and security as a zero sum game.
When I go through TSA, that is an imposition on my free movement and I have had many tools confiscated at my own cost.
The NSA now snoops on us all. But the genie of the ethernet is out of the bottle. It is buyer beware, cause nothing on computers or phones is private anymore.
Microsoft, Google, Apple, Facebook are the new oligarchs and they buy and sell personal information for their own ends.
We live in a world that could be considered over credentialed. When simple hairdressing skills in some states require a state credential...I'm just remembering this off the top of my head, corrections welcome.
Kids can't just open the lemonade stand anymore.
Maybe some of this is good but it's not the world I grew up in and I find the fringes of political correctness to be pure BS.
I also understand that the world changes on us all and the rug will be pulled out from most of us before we are done in this life. That's why I take it all with some bemusement.
My ego isn't big enough for me to be a know it all.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Mar 11, 2016 - 04:54pm PT
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Would you guess that Joe of Crab Shack fame is a Trump or Cruz supporter?
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Mar 11, 2016 - 05:04pm PT
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^ That was in my FB news feed today. For those who don't look to FB for news, it was a picture of a hanging, that was used as decor at a restaurant called Joe's Crab Shack. I guess the image was embedded into a dining table, and included some added text(seen in the image) about "just said the Gumbo wasn't that good" or something similar.
The news story said the owner apologized "to those who were offended." I suppose that means that he shared a chuckle with those who weren't offended.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Mar 11, 2016 - 05:25pm PT
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Escopeta
Genuine gratitude for your answer to my challenge. I really didn't expect such a detailed explanation of your delusion.
You fail to recognize that there more sinister entities that seek to limit our freedom and the entire purpose of Government is to help protect its citizens from those. Whether it be external nations, thieves, murderers, rapists, fraudsters, polluters, bigots, child labor exploiters, drought, famine or disease, there are far worse tyrannies than having to pay taxes and live in relative security. Don't give me that Ben Franklin quote about liberty and safety unless you quote it properly and research what he was actually taking about.
Most significantly, in common with so many Libertarians, you confuse the limited role of the original Federal Government as being representative of the appropriate role of government as a whole. The 1776 or 1789 government had no mandate to regulate those actions of citizens or corporations which potentially harmed other citizens. It took a civil war to change that.
TE
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Mar 11, 2016 - 05:27pm PT
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Game on. Get out of Chicago.
You ain't seen nothing yet.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Mar 11, 2016 - 05:27pm PT
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Happiegrrrl2, you are legally free to say those words without Government interference, although not to use them on your employees. Strangely, most people don't realize that it took until the 1920's to achieve even that basic freedom.
Otherwise 99/100 for the response.
TE
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 11, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
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The entire purpose of government is to protect us from external nations, thieves, murderers, rapists, fraudsters, polluters, bigots, child labor exploiters, drought, famine or disease?
God just smashed a kitty with a sledgehammer.
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