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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 22, 2009 - 07:02pm PT
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Merry CHRISTmas to everyone in Supertopo's dugout;
Chris McNamara, RJ, Norton, "Ardi", Jaybro, nature, the kid, Jingy, apogee,weschrist, fattrad, navblk4, dirtbag, Tami, TwistedCrank, cintune, Dr. F., radical, bluering,
noshoesnoshirt, The Warbler, khanom, the Fet, micronut, HowweirdDean, GDavis, WBraun, Largo,
jfailing, Flanders!, eeyonkee, looking sketchy there..., GOclimb, Josh Nash, Lynne Leichtfuss, Jan,
WandaFuca, jstan, Patrick Sawyer, Bad Climber, bc, eKat, Captain...or Skully, Chaz, Karl Baba,
Studly, Rokjox, Chaz, Ed Hartouni, MH2, Klimmer, Pate, Piton Ron, pyrosis, Jim Brennan, tdk,
Jennie, The user formerly known as stzzo, philo, Ghost, midarockjock, Grant Meisenholder, rrider,
rockermike, survival, kent, monolith, atchafalaya, Mighty Hiker, corniss chopper, wack-N-dangle,
Peter Haan, WanderlustMD, Elcapinyoazz, donini, locker, Gene, skipt, paul roehl, Homer, Cragman, Brian Hench, stevep, rectorsquid, wildone, healyje, Mtnmun, dfrost7, BASE104,
'Pass the Pitons' Pete, donald perry, scarcollector, Norwegian, Lovegasoline, Terry, originalpmac,
bookworm, Rankin, Marc Sisko, roadman, dave goodwin, Skeptimistic, d-know, MisterE, Reilly,
Russ Walling, LEB, 4damages, Crimpergirl, t*r, Cosmiccragsman, 426, Bronwyn, Robb, yossarian,
fongschway, UncleDoug, nutjob, slayton, bmacd, GBrown, illusiondweller,
mark miller,
Cheers, Gobee
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MH2
climber
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Dec 22, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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An honor to be with you, sir.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 22, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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And for what it's worth, I completely agree with Werner about Gobee. Whether or not the guy has 2 thoughts to rub together, he comes across as honest and good-hearted. I look behind all those strange posts to the person.
I agree as well.
It's what we should be doing with each other as well. There's plenty of folks I lock horns with on Supertopo (Gobee is not one of them, but hello Bluering) who I enjoy and appreciate as people.
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 22, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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About Gobee, I'll go further and say that when a person has a direct connection to something higher than normal human thought, it shines through regardless of their theological background.
All people of good will can make progress on the path. And people of all or no theologies can sense it. As Karl would say, we all have intuition. As Werner would say, it's the heart that's most important.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 22, 2009 - 10:44pm PT
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Thanks Gobee; Cheers to you and to all supertopoers out there in virtual campfire land.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Dec 23, 2009 - 10:44am PT
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Gobee - Hey, uhm... not a creationist.... But... proud company I've been placed with...
Merry Christmase (sp?) LOOL
dab
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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Bump
For sophism, straw-man tactics, evasion, poor logic, unscientific proccess, etc etc against "Life comes from life"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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Bump
For a lack of respect for the potential and power of planetary processes which spawn life throughout the universe.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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For a lack of respect
Speculation, projectionism, and evasion again.
Potential -- possible, as opposed to actual .....
We're not debating respect or no respect; But "Life comes from life"
Against "life comes from death"
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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Not "life comes from death", but "life comes from non-living matter".
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Life comes from non living matter
If it's non living then where come life?
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
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When chemicals gain the ability to self-replicate and then to evolve into new forms, we have life.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Then put 2 independent chemicals on laboratory table.
They will not do anything until mixed together by the scientist or nature (which can animate to mix them together) which is life.
By themselves sitting there in 2 beakers nothing will happen until mixed.
I have no quarrel with the chemists if they begin from life, but unfortunately they say that everything begins from dead matter.
Even dead matter is caused to move by the cooperation of living energy.
Dead matter has no moving power, and therefore it cannot act independently.
So .. dead matter has no value.
So it is valuable so long we utilize it in different purposes. Otherwise, it has no value.
A nice automobile with nice machine has value so long it is driven by a living entity. Otherwise, who cares for it? Nobody cares for it.
Therefore matter, however valuable it may be, it is inferior to the spirit.
The machine is manipulated and manufactured by life, not that automatically the materials becomes a machine.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:45pm PT
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Nature mixes just fine, and by definition provides all the necessary energy and matter for life. Again, man now constructs and creates life from web-ordered chemicals on a regular basis, but just can't synthesize it yet.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
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Dead matter has no moving power, and therefore it cannot act independently.
Planetary processes are not static.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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Again, man now constructs and creates life
Yes MAN the "living energy".
Not that the from web-ordered chemicals independently constructs and creates by themselves.
How the material force is working cannot be explained just on the basis of chemical reaction.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Yes, we are still learning how the initial synthesis sequence works, but there is lots of progress on that front as well relative to RNA precursors.
At one time no one even thought to bother climbing any part of El Cap - walked right by it they did. How many decades passed from the time men first climbed rocks as an activity unto itself before the Nose was done? It is no different - just another journey of discovery and learning. We've only known RNA/DNA chemistry for 52 years.
And how interesting that 1957 was the seminal year for both DNA and the Nose. But in 1956 you probably would have been one of those people saying we'll never figure out how heridity works or climb the Nose.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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So
Nature mixes just fine, and by definition provides all the necessary energy and matter for life.
Energy and matter are 2. The energy animates matter.
Just as the operator and the machine. The machine (matter) will not animate/run without the operator (living force) first turning it on or creating the machine.
Not that we have this type of statement from Brian: Life comes from non living matter
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MH2
climber
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Dec 23, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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In the spirit of giving, or at least re-gifting (these opinions are not my own).
Basic to the scientific method is the fundamental axiom that our physical universe is a rational, ordered one in which cause and effect are inevitably linked and where events fit together in logical patterns. It is an axiom since it is a self-evident truth that cannot be directly proved by any means that we know. At that, we must not forget that this, like many other ideas once considered axiomatic, may at some future time be disproved by some yet undiscovered fact revealed by a yet undevised method of reasoning.
How Did You Think of That?
An Introduction to the Scientific Method
David H. Killeffer
In 1932 Niels Bohr gave a lecture titled "Light and Life," in which he spoke of philosophical implications for the life sciences of the changes that quantum theory had brought to physics. He felt that there is a fundamental problem defining phenomena independent of the subjective means we use to observe them. Five years later he gave another talk, "Biology and Atomic Physics," in which he compared this problem to the world view taught by Buddha and Lao Tzu, who long before him had addressed the epistemological difficulties arising from our being both observers and actors. In this lecture Bohr speculated that we may need to discover still missing fundamental approaches to the analysis of natural phenomena before we can understand life in physical terms.
from the introduction to Max Delbrück's Mind from Matter?
by Gunther Stent
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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Planetary processes require no operator. Are the gods shuffling the continents around? Are they down on the equator putting their anthropomorphized backs into spinning the planet?
we may need to discover still missing fundamental approaches to the analysis of natural phenomena before we can understand life in physical term
Absolutely, and we've been developing new fundamental approaches to analysis at a rapid rate. In 1932 we knew a lot about 'atoms' and nothing about 'genomes'; we have since mapped the human and many other species' genomes and we've only been able to do that kind of analysis for 33 years.
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