Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 08:34am PT
|
You leftists voted for Ralph Nader and gave us George W. Bush. Fools never learn.
Huh, and all this time I thought it was the Supreme Court that gave us W.
But yeah, the fools in Florida who voted for Nader in the general weren't acting in their own best interest. But sooner or later, we have to stand up to the corporations that own our Gov't.
|
|
nature
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 09:11am PT
|
Drumpfs lead widens on Billary. This is why Bernie will stay in it until the convention. He knows he's the only one that can beat Drumpf.
President Drumpf - take cover and get ready for it.
Again - Bernie can't deliver on a single promise - NOT ONE.
Looking more and more like there is one thing Bernie can do that Billary cannot - keep Drumpf from becoming the next President.
I'm voting for the Supreme Court which is where any progressive law passed in the next thirty years is going to end up.
Explain why Bernie won't appoint similar (if not the same) judges? Oh, because he can't deliver on anything.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 09:28am PT
|
Explain to me how Bernie could beat Donald but Hillary couldn't after she has beaten Bern.
The American voter is far more middle of the road, if not conservative, than Bernie and they
will surely opt for anyone less radical, despite her 'baggage'. Remember, people fear change
more than they desire it, at least when they're relatively well off and most Americans are that.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 09:29am PT
|
Nature,
you fully know that the Presidential election is awarded to the nominee who gets at least 270 State specific Electoral Votes
yet you seem to be saying that Hillary Clinton cannot get 270
that you are basing your opinion on recent national polling instead
what has changed in the state polling Trump vs Clinton to lead you to believe this?
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 10:19am PT
|
at least when they're relatively well off and most Americans are that.
Ever since the right wing began their ascendancy in the '70s that has become less and less true. Sooner or later, even the goobers in the south will realize who has been giving them the shaft.
“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html?_r=0
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 10:21am PT
|
Nature wrote: Looking more and more like there is one thing Bernie can do that Billary cannot - keep Drumpf from becoming the next President.
Bullsh#t. :-)
|
|
nature
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 10:35am PT
|
Geez Bob, you sound like a Drumpf supporter with that deep, rich, well thought out retort ;-)
I know what you are getting at Norton. I've posted a number of times how the math ads up to 270.
What I'm stating is coming mostly from what I'm witnessing. We're watching the democrats self destruct. Meanwhile Drumpf is uniting the party on many fronts (though it's yet to be explained to me how he's going to unite his party only to turn around and chop their heads off [if it's to be believed he's going to end the corruption in Washington]).
So like it, buy it, or believe it or not the Sanders crowd as a whole is becoming more and more fed up with the DNC and in particular DWS. And you can call them cry babies or call BS but you'd be making a mistake. In my assessment the game was rigged against Mr. Sanders from the beginning. And there's a whole lot of people that feel the same way. Those numbers are growing.
That topped with the fact that many, myself included, are still wondering if she'll be indicted. (repeating it over and over that she won't be will not change my view on that. The FBI dropping the investigation would)
That coupled with the fact that she's viewed as corrupt to the core is what I believe to be moving the polls. And they are getting tighter and tighter in the swing states.
I had a conversation with a friend last night (many of you know him) which started something like-
F*#k dude, I'd almost rather see a Drumpf presidency than Hillary. To which he responded - yeah, f*#k that corrupt bitch.
And were both as left leaning, tree hugging, hippie progressives as it gets.
So I would suggest to my Hillary supporting friends that you tune in a little better. If you simply expect the Bernie supports to get in line with Hillary yet you belittle them or insult them then you have Drumpf presidency in the making.
I may very well vote for Hillary in November. but it wasn't but two weeks ago that I was very upset with the NeverHillary crowd. But I sat, listened, tried to understand and that helped me understand why the national polls are swinging Drumpfs way.
He's a con man and he's probably better than we give him credit for. But I can't help but wonder and think that a drumpf presidency may be in the best long term interest of this country. he's a f*#k up and a failure and I do believe he'll completely and totally obliterate the regressive party. Of course by then the apes may take over and the statue of liberty will be buried in sand.
|
|
nature
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:08am PT
|
Yes Bob, keep it up with the light-hearted insults. that's surely get the Bernie Bot crew behind Hillary.
Drumpf/Palin 2016
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:12am PT
|
Nature, they are not insults to you and sorry if you took it that way.
I could care less who they vote for, it is their choice.
"He is losing because he has less votes, less delegates and less super delegates. Pretty simple."
You seem to think you can disprove the above, go for it.
|
|
nature
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:21am PT
|
Bob - didn't really take it that way. But I think many do. Thus back to my point about it worth it to pay more attention to the Sanders crowd. My observation is the Hillary crowd is alienating them and straight-up insulting them at times. Crazy the dems are self destructing while a demagogue is uniting his party.
First of all I call bullshit on the super delegates. They shouldn't commit until the convention. Bernie continues to close the gap both with delegates and total votes. It's not his fault the states that most favored hillary went first. Calling for him to drop out because she has more at the moment is bullsh#t.
He's going to the convention and I fully support him for that. Let's see what's going on then and then decide. I still think an indictment is a real possibility.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:22am PT
|
I think a climbing analogy is apt here.
You are standing on a crumbling ledge. The place where you want to be requires a leap, and you are probably going to biff it with a lot of rope out. Damage may be significant. Do you go for where you want to be, and risk screwing yourself trying? Or do you hang out on that crumbly ledge waiting, screwing yourself more slowly but more certainly?
For those not prone to making connections between concepts: Hillary as the mainstream candidate is the crumbling ledge, representing the erosion of personal security and quality of life at the expense of increasing corporate power. I do not believe the good things she will do will balance out the inaction on the front of reigning in corporate power. Going for Bernie is a leap, and the risk of falling is to get Trump. But do we want to risk a terrible few years, maybe a decade, or surrender our century to status quo erosion of personal quality of life until it bites us in the ass and we are looking at bloody revolution (which won't work as well as in the past because the powerful elite have more technology these days to counter the efforts of the impoverished to fight back).
It all depends on your timeframe for what you consider the more conservative/mature move vs. the more rectionary/childish move. Many people think the Bernie or Bust folks are just childish. Many of the Bernie folks don't think the Hillary settlers have a long enough vision to think about where our society is going. Heads in the sand until their families are personally affected.
A huge turn-out of Green Party voters would help the Democratic party realize they need to seriously embrace the issues and values that are causing a lot of people to not support Hillary. It has a similar dynamic to Republicans courting the Tea Party or the religious vote- both Dem and Repub are cobbled together coalitions of people with different values. In the end there are two main big coalitions because eventually most decisions are cobbled together in an appropriations bill with a yes/no vote. You have to pick a side.
So that's the argument for not supporting the third choice. And it's also what rich/powerful folks count on to ensure a status quo that is shrinking the middle class. Aaaggh, I can just go in circles on this. Need a break from that back to the certainty of configuring equipment to transport IP packets.
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:24am PT
|
"He's going to the convention and I fully support him for that. Let's see what's going on then and then decide. I still think an indictment is a real possibility."
So do I and when it is all say and done, the party unites and Trump goes down in flames.
I don't think the indictment is going to happen.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:26am PT
|
Don't assume Hillary supporters would jump for joy if Bernie were the nominee.
Yes, I'd hold my nose and vote for him because I have the future of the country in mind.
Bernie supporters apparently aren't too clear on that one.
Who loves this debate the most? Donald J. Trump.
I do not believe the good things she will do will balance out the inaction on the front of reigning in corporate power.
What??? Raising the minimum wage, equal pay for women, expanded childcare, action on climate change, realistic immigration change (not a wall)...these aren't important to you?
Explain to me how Bernie "reigns in corporate power", exactly. He isn't doing it a senator, so if he were to be elected (he loses officially in less the 3 weeks, btw), but in the hypothetical, what are those steps? Does congress play a role? Or does he just put out a directive on Day 1?
I still think an indictment is a real possibility.
Oh, brother. And when it doesn't happen (it won't)l what then? Will you accept that or claim it was an inside job, the rich and powerful always get away with it. I have a feeling I know where you're leaning.
|
|
nature
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:30am PT
|
OK glad we agree on that.
DMT is right - this is shaping up to be a shitshow and not the one we expected.
NutAgain - I think I'm opting for the rope out and leaping but why not up the ante and do it Tobin Sorenson style?
Explain to me how Bernie "reigns in corporate power", exactly.
Well how about you go first? How does Hillary do that? I see it the same as with Drumpf - he's rallying is party around him yet he's going to clean up Washington. One of those things is knot going to happen. Drumpf supporters are delusional if they think they will have both. Well, i could have just left it as "Drumpf supporters are delusional" but i digress.
Although to attempt to answer that - I'm not sure that's the platform he's running on. His target is Wall Street and dealing with income inequality. Dealing with the corruption is more of a Drumpf platform.
But let's be real here - none of the candidates are going to deal with the corruption or reigning in the power.
So let's be real here - we're f*#ked.
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:34am PT
|
"DMT is right - this is shaping up to be a shitshow and not the one we expected.'
Don't think so, did you forget eight years ago??
|
|
nature
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:39am PT
|
I should have said DMT makes an interesting observation. two months ago it was looking like the shitshow was the RNC. Now it's looking like it'll be the DNC. a lot can and will change in the next few months. But boy did the table flip.
again, say it all you want that she won't be indicted. it means nothing to me. Zero. Totally and completely unconvincing. If/when the FBI drops the case then I'll be convinced of her innocence. Though I tend to think if she is indicted it's not because of her corruption but rather she made a mistake and didn't plan to commit a crime.
There's a f*#kton of people genuinely fearful of an indictment. And rightly so. Having the FBI investigate will do that.
Oh and to be honest, Bob, I remember 8 years ago electing President Obama. I'm not sure I even paid attention to DNC.
In fact about the only thing I remember for any of the conventions recently was Clint Eastwood talking to an empty chair. That's memorable sh#t right there.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:47am PT
|
Crankster- all those things are good. Very good.
Have you ever captured a lizard using a long blade of grass? You tie a noose in one end, and if the grass is long enough, the lizard is not distracted by you approaching it. You can be sloppy with the noose banging on his head as you adjust it around his neck. He just sits there. And then when you get it over his neck, you can just pick him up and he never struggled to get away until it was too late.
I am afraid of losing our civilization in this manner. I see us getting incremental advancements in many good things for society, and then suddenly we realize:
 there is zero privacy or ability to perform subversive actions because technology is ominpresent
our elected governments are figure-heads like the royalty of England, and the real power holders, because they have all the money, are the corporations who pay for private military
between automation and outsourcing to 3rd world countries with no human rights or environmental laws, we have very very few jobs in America and we become our own 3rd world country filled with homeless beggars and desperate people willing to work in any conditions for any little pay because they are starving.
Bernie as President doesn't solve this. Just like Nevada isn't about adding up the couple delegate difference. Again, it is about nurturing the will of the fickle populace to feel empowered and fight back against injustices. Right now we have a historic moment where large numbers of people feel that they are empowered to demand change to make a better world for us all. Bernie's loss would take the wind out of those sails, turn the fickle populace back to apathy and not voting in the subsequent congressional races, and we will continue the depressing decline toward a seemingly inevitable dystopic future because not enough people give a sh#t. Those same people will say "see I told you so you silly idealist. It's time to grow up now and chew your sh#t with a smile on your face."
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 11:52am PT
|
Look, I can't make anyone like Hillary. I happen to, faults and all. I've hear all this "scandal" hokum for years. It never amounts to anything. I am fairly certain the FBI investigation will conclude there was no criminal intent on her part. She admits she made an error in judgement. Good enough for me.
Sure, the huge speaking fees bother me. I find it distasteful, as I do for other current and ex-office holders who do the same. Bernie wins on that, although, he's not allowed to charge fees while in office.
I hope things settle down in the near future and we can all focus on how much we agree on, not disagree. Elections are emotional.
Nut, maybe boring, but here's her position on corps:
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/10/08/wall-street-work-for-main-street/
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
May 19, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
|
"Oh and to be honest, Bob, I remember 8 years ago electing President Obama. I'm not sure I even paid attention to DNC."
it heated up pretty well between Obama and Hillary in 2008, in 1976 there were 17 democrats running, some jumping in as late April and May.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!