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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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healyje,
well said! There seems to be a huge divide who don't seem to care how a route was put up as long as they have routes to climb. On the other side is a group who cares about the style and ethics. It is sad to me that some people don't seem to care about style and ethics and only care about the result.
Not to make this a political thread, but I think a whole lot of problems we are facing in this country are because of the same "the end justifies the means" attitude we see being expressed here. Just look at how the pro-Iraq war crowd are now justifying their invasion of Iraq. Where I am standing it is exactly the same thing.
Bruce
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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but what would you say if they'd straight aided and drilled their way up the slab?
or should they have just left it alone?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Karl, Blair, and Matt,
If you want some examples of somebody aiding a steep slab/face with lots of drilling:
 Harding and Rowell, on the original Half Dome South Face route. Harding's approach for minimal impact slab aiding was to use 1/4" batholes, with occasional bolts. I don't think anyone has been back to try to create a free route out of the slab part of their route, probably because the lower part looks too hard to free.
the Uriostes, Prince of Darkness, in Black Velvet Canyon at Red Rocks. They made a bolt ladder and then pulled some of the bolts because not all were needed for free climbing. They used the same methods on other routes at Red Rocks.
[4/3/08 Edit: I'm informed by Greg Barnes, who has done a lot of ASCA bolt replacement at Red Rocks, that Jorge Urioste more often used batholes between bolts, rather than placing and pulling; also a few belays were moved and a few of the 1/4" bolts broke off due to leader falls after the FAs. So that is a more accurate description of his technique on those routes.]
I haven't seen the rock on the upper 1000' of Growing Up, so I don't know if it has fewer stances than Southern Belle or Cataclysmic Megasheer. Probably Sean estimated that it would be about the same as Southern Belle. If he was correct, it would be sketchy to get it done on lead by free climbing between stances, and maybe he didn't have those skills or didn't want to take those risks. I'm sure the idea of drilling bathook ladders was not very appealling to him. That is more of an option for somebody like Harding who couldn't free 5.11 between stances and did not mind drilling.
Doing the upper slab on rappel allowed Sean to use his rapbolting skills to make a route with lots of bolts that might be popular if it was a little more accessible (it requires a lot of effort due to the approach, short seasons, hard free climbing in the arch, the bolt ladder which some free climbing purists might not want to do, and the fact that the upper part is slab climbing which does not seem to be popular). I hope I am wrong and it does get some ascents.
I suppose the adventure of doing a ground up version of the FA of the upper slab is not really blocked, since Doug described a version to the left which blanks out after 300'. Maybe someone will go up there and have that adventure. It wouldn't be a 1000' bolt ladder. If the upper 1000' had not been rap bolted, and somebody had done it ground up and managed to find the same line of climbing that Sean found on rappel, if they were capable of drilling the 5.10 pitches on lead from stance, then there might have been some bathook ladders on the few 5.11 pitches. Or if someone does the left version, there might be a bolt ladder through the blank section (I don't think it was mentioned how long that was), or they could presumably pendulum left or right to find freeclimbable rock.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Matt,
> if they'd climbed those arches banging in pins the whole way, that'd be ok, the FA's perogative, right? (but of course they didn't). still, they could have done, on aid, whatever the hell they wanted, because their are no limits to what aid guys can do to get where they are going, they just get to do whatever they want, whether or not the terrain they are on can be climbed w/out aid tactics. but to put up a free route, they were bound to an aid climber's ethic, even though that aid climber's ethic would have allowed them to hammer and scar where they didn't (need to) do so.
Uh, since when is an aid climber's ethic "no limits", "hammer and scar", etc.? That sounds like a non-ethic. The ethic that I know about is called "minimal impact", using clean aid whenever you can. I don't think you see many people banging in pins on the Nose or Salathe' these days, so this ethic seems to be popular.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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chill out dude, with dialogue like that you must be a POME, just think what Sir Douglas Scott would think of your rambling on..........................Hey, this is Yosemite, the rule is no rules apply!
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raymond phule
climber
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"The 'traffic' and impact each one of them represents is fairly enormous given 80-85% of the base is wholly bolt-dependent now versus barely any in the mid-70s."
and other comments about gym climbers.
I dont believe this discussion is about bolt dependent gym climbers vs trad climbers.
It is possibly to be a trad climber with pretty sound climbing etics and still believe that a rap bolted route could be a better choice than a death route in some cases.
Bold routes have their place and BY is a prime example of a good bold route because it is actually repeated.
The possibilities on the south face of half dome seems to be:
aided bolt/rivet/bathooks ladders.
ground up death routes with very very few repeats.
rap bolted routes that actually might get repeated once in a while.
no route at all.
This is my view and I believe I am a pretty standard trad climber that dont like huge runouts but like to climb climbs like central pillar of frenzy, nut cracker, east buttress of middle and walls. I am atleast not feeling I am a gym climber...
I am also pretty glad that the FA on east buttres on middle didn't try to be bold and free climb the 10.c ground up that probably would have resulted in no bolts and very few later ascents.
I almost believe that it was more people on the east buttress when I climbed it than have been on the south face of half dome in the last 40 years...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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What's worse, a thread 389 posts long about bolting ethics, or a political thread?
Don't make me start a political thread.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: Ok, one last go for the evening. The difference is, Bob, that instead of those folks representing a ratio of something like 1:5,000 or 1:10,000 in the mid-70's they now represent a ratio of something more like 1:500,000 (wild ass guessing here, but you get the idea) - they are the peak of a far broader-based pyramid. The 'traffic' and impact each one of them represents is fairly enormous given 80-85% of the base is wholly bolt-dependent now versus barely any in the mid-70s.
Joe....you might have a point if the climbers who did this route would fall into your profile....they don't and again thanks for gloom and doom to scare us into thinking that climbing is heading into a big-black-hole.
I ain't buying it just like I didn't buy the fear induced reasons for the Iraq invasion. Your wild ass quessing is just that and the same tactics used by Bush & Co to get this country into a non-declared war.
Your disdain for gym climbers, bolts and sport-climbers is apparent and that is a fact and that's ok...but your reasons for not liking this route and others like it are based on emotions and nothing more. You haven't climb the route, seen the route or talked to someone who has.
Your statements are based on emotions and nothing more!!!!
The only person presenting facts on this thread so far has been Doug...he has been honest, straightforward and under the circumstances...a gentleman.
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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this thread is great!!!
one final point from me (the popcorn is almost done)
There seems to be a misunderstanding of ethics.
climbing ethics are set by the community to protect the community and its resources. so far the community (in this case supertopo, maybe a bad test subject) thinks that it was the wrong style to rap bolt the route.
nothing more needs said.
ill say it again, do not lower the bar so that you can climb the route. leave it alone or get stronger. if its a death route its a death route. it may not see much traffic, but you care about your experience, DR, on the route then this fact is relevant and whom ever sends the route after you will also have to deal with the challenges that you had. if you wanted to set up a line that could be followed and benefit the community then i hope you placed enough bolts for me to think its safe!
(i like run outs but i get scared at the 20 m mark....thanks)
the route was simply to difficult for you to send it in good style so it was beaten into submission by people who should know better, driven by what.......... or to what aim..........? it hasn't impressed me. why did you climb it?
good luck guys.
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Darren D.
Social climber
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Let he who is without sin chop the first bolt...
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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There seems to be a misunderstanding of ethics.
You hit that nail square on the head. Unfortunately, the misunderstanding is yours. There really is no ethical issue here at all. The only issue is that of style. You seem also to have missed the point that there are any number of people that are quite accepting of the style (in your "ethical" argument).
If there were an ethical issue, it might be about whether bolts were used, not how they were placed, which is the basis of your objection.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Good post Trad....you beat me to it.
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Ethics denotes the theory of right action
this was an unfortunate side track in my degree because it made me "more balanced"
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WBraun
climber
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Yes, ethics is the basic principle of purification.
Of course, in this material world everything is immoral, but still we have to distinguish good and bad.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Boy, next thing you know rap bolting is going to spread to Tuolumne,
the bastion of ground-up ethics. Oh wait, stop the press... No luck, that
one has already been printed in the new guide. Look for it right next to Piece.
So what is the next step here. Almost 400 posts in a couple of days, and
we have a stalemate. I see some people view this route as the beginning
of the end. Or maybe even the end itself.
The fact is, we're not talking about gym climbers going out and grid-bolting
faces. We have SAR guys rap bolting, and old-school heros rap bolting, and
born-and-bred Yosemite locals rap bolting. [Ed: thanks ec]
Some folks put up routes for themselves--the famous quote goes "I'm not about
putting up public-service routes." Others put up routes to be climbed and
enjoyed by anybody with the skills for that grade.
"Death" routes have their place (although few have died on them). But even though
the Arches Terrace routes have been completely retrofitted, those routes, for the
most part, remain untouched. Indeed, there was a long thread about this very
subject, started by Werner, not long ago: Museum Climbs?
(http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=447487);.
I am not arguing that rap bolting is good, or desirable. In fact, I spent a
lot time writing an article and arguing till blue in the face that "rap
bolting steals the best that a route has to give, that of the first ascent."
So where are we. Do we call Ken Nichols? Do we live with some amount of
rap bolting? Should we publish rap-bolted routes in guides, or smash
rap-bolter's cars.
Is there a point where the quality of a route trumps the style in which was put up?
Do we give a pass to some top-downers because of their status in the climbing world,
or because the route they "opened" is high-quality, or do we put a blanket
statement out saying "NO RAP BOLTING" and chop all rap routes. Because if
you chop this route, there's a few more to go before you rid the planet of the disease.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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400...and still going strong.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Really a great thread. And an important disscussion.
I bet 5 post cards this thread tops 500.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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It's a cool route done in good style. In this case the style serves climbers rather than egos.
There was a famous doctor named Spock who said the the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. This was after they toasted Khan.
DR must be the new Spock. Feckin cool.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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The nice thing about 400+ ...
We should be able to build a list of the ST control freaks.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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fattrad, you have no idea how the film crew got involved and what the motivation was for the movie. This route did not start out as a publicity stunt, and it did not end as one.
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