Death on El Cap (Freeblast) this morning?

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rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Jun 11, 2018 - 09:02am PT

It always annoys be when people claim to be able to peer into someone else's psyche and divine the "real" reasons for observed behavior. Explaining why anyone voluntarily exposes themselves to fatal risks is a deep, complicated, and nuanced task that is forever being botched, as those who presume to sit in judgement conflate their perspectives with those of the "accused."

The SF piece, which although much better written, has no more (and actually a touch less) critical detail than the Lucas account, and it is pervasively fouled with ignorant and unsupported judgements about the climbers so tragically lost. I hate the piece and the messages it promotes.

If it is possible to step back from the immediate horror of recent events, we can discern a bifurcation in climbing attitudes. On the one hand is the plaisir climbing trend in Europe, in which formerly and/or potentially trad climbs are equipped with bolts so as to make for a low-key "pleasant" experience. Here the tendency is to bleed risk out of the equation while preserving the pleasures of movement and the appreciation of scene in which the activity occurs.

On the other hand, we have an increasing cadre of elite climbers who---having perhaps run out of challenges in the conventional context---have increasingly turned to astonishing feats of speed and endurance, leveraging their superb skills and prodigious endurance to keep them safe in an environment that necessarily incorporates a far higher level of intrinsic risk. (Note that it is possible to understand this trend without appealing to the effects and demands of maintaining a public persona.) In this regard, one might view these exceptional efforts as a sort of return to the classical, and much more dangerous, beginnings of climbing, a time when hemp ropes snapped and belays were rudimentary, a modern embrace of the admonition that the leader must not fall.

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Jun 11, 2018 - 09:04am PT

JLP --> The cold fact is you commonly do exactly the same thing, are likely worse and less experienced at it, and cant't face the reality of your own probability of dying just like they did.

Exactly this.

The same discussions would happen when we lost somebody hang-gliding. Rarely the person was doing something outrageous but more often than not, they just made a series of simple mistakes. Those discussions would devolve into "Hell, Driving here to launch is the most dangerous part!", nonsense type deflection attempts.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jun 11, 2018 - 09:32am PT

what a weird turn this thread has taken.

Part of the appeal of climbing is that climbers seem to be engaged in an activity that that is "death defying," the Hemingway quote provides the essence:

“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”

these three "sports" all involved, certainly at the time the quote was coined, the very possible outcome of death for the participants. In Hemingway's world of machismo that was the ultimate commitment, to ante your life up for sport.

If you think that climbing has reached a level of respectability that it no longer receives condemnation, implicit and explicit, from the public when such a highly visible "accident" occurs with essentially the entire world looking on (those collected to see Alex and Tommy set a new speed-record on the Nose), well you need to think that through again.

We are at a loss ourselves to explain why we would engage in an activity that could end in our deaths, and effect the lives of the people we love. The best we can come up with is the archly selfish "doing what we love," apparently more than life itself.

In reaction, we scrutinize every action of the accident victims' climb to find a reason why things ended up the way they did. This can be positive from the point of view of helping us avoid similar actions in the future, but the very negative outcome of this is we tend to explain the accident on some failure of judgement or equipment or expertise.

The fantasy we tell ourselves is that if we can control all of the factors we can avoid fatal accidents, we see a way to "safe" climbing.

The tone of the article and the issues it raises simply conform to the public's perception of climbing, that it is dangerous with fatal consequences.

And honestly, that is part of its appeal to climbers, all the rest are mere games.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Jun 11, 2018 - 09:46am PT

Ed, if your opening comments were aimed at me, I have no illusions about the likelihood and content of public condemnation and have little expectation that it be otherwise. That doesn't mean I have to like it, however---I have absolutely nothing to rethink in that regard!

I agree with the rest of your comments and have frequently expressed similar thoughts. Risks are inextricably woven into the fabric of trad climbing, and embracing and controlling those risks are likewise part of what draws people to the endeavor---no matter what you tell your mommy.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Jun 11, 2018 - 09:52am PT

I have a hard enough time nailing down the reasons why I ever went climbing, tromped across Borneo, went caving in New Guinea, and hung out with natives in Irian Jaya, so I have no chance or interest in trying to reckon the "causes" motivating modern sport climbers. But after meeting Quin Brett at an AAC meeting back in Boston earlier this year, and lifting her out of her wheelchair and into the bed in my hotel room (which I briefly loaned her and her bud Libby Sauter as a staging room), I naturally started questioning my own passion for extreme adventure sports.

I don't fault myself for wondering, offer no excuses or explanations, Fact is, I don't KNOW how I "have it" and have no clarity on any of it. Or have any belief that anyone else should care what I think. The participants own the sport and if I was still holding the torch I'd probably listen to no one on this thread.

But I felt awful about Quinn and this last tragedy. But again I have no idea what might be done about going forward and that ultimately, it's none of my business. It's just that when I'm confused or conflicted about things it's my nature to talk out loud to friends.

Such a screwy dichotomy: the adventure is great, but the dying is bullsh#t.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jun 11, 2018 - 09:53am PT

Rich, it was aimed at all of us, for being disingenuous and not being honest about it

me included

Trump

climber

Jun 11, 2018 - 10:11am PT

Other people play games. What we climbers do is sport.

And form beliefs about ourselves and others in self-confirming ways. Well I guess other people do that too, sometimes by not admiring what we do as much as we do.

jstan

climber

Jun 11, 2018 - 10:14am PT

An important part of the aftermath from this tragedy is the debate it has stimulated. The questions here are most subtle, as pointed out by Rgold. Indeed I will posit that even the principal does not know in detail why they do what they do. When I was climbing this was the reason I took care never to accept even one cent from climbing. I had to have no confusion on the point in my own mind. The $12 the NPS paid me to go on a rescue in Yosemite with Donini created a crisis for me. I had to find a way to give it away, asap.

The Isle of Mann mentioned by John Long, to me, illustrates the range of motivations of which we are capable.I once viewed a discussion given by a racer, a Doctor who managed the effort to keep the injured alive. A very intelligent and well expressed person who was killed in his next race. I perceived that death is actually one of the things that attracts some people to that race. It is manifestly hard to put a bound on the range of human behaviors. I raise two points:

1. When there is a loss

each of us loses.

2. Each of us needs to do all we can not to let our actions affect what others choose to do. We may not be legally culpable. But we each need to be able to go to sleep at the end of the day.

RURP_Belay

Big Wall climber

Bitter end of a bad anchor

Jun 11, 2018 - 10:18am PT

we have an increasing cadre of elite climbers who---having perhaps run of of challenges in the conventional context---have increasingly turned to astonishing feats of speed and endurance, leveraging their superb skills and prodigious endurance to keep them safe in an environment that necessarily incorporates a far higher level of intrinsic risk. (Note that it is possible to understand this trend without appealing to the effects and demands of maintaining a public persona.) In this regard, one might view these exceptional efforts as a sort of return to the classical, and much more dangerous, beginnings of climbing, a time when hemp ropes snapped and belays were rudimentary, a modern embrace of the admonition that the leader must not fall.

RIP to two obviously extraordinary beings, first off.

Secondly, rgold's commentary above rings true to me, and somewhat contrary to some of Yager's points. It seems (by all accounts) these guys were just enjoying their climbing -like any well-paired, life-long partners & friends do -except theirs was "next level". How many of us can judge decisions in that state of awareness? Empathize with the risk & reward? Not many I imagine, and certainly not I.

Trump

climber

Jun 11, 2018 - 10:29am PT

“Each of us needs to do all we can not to let our actions affect what others choose to do. We may not be legally culpable. But we each need to be able to go to sleep at the end of the day.“

It’s hard to tell whether what we need to do is to not let our actions affect others, or whether it’s doing what we need to do to go to sleep at the end of the day.

Doing what we do to be able to go to sleep at the end of the day may not be something that we do for other people (and often seems to be more about belief than behavior). The same is probably true for climbing, and forming our self-confirming beliefs and attitudes about climbing and about ourselves as climbers.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jun 11, 2018 - 10:41am PT

Fact: The darkest corner of the climbers soul knows the ultimate narcissistic feed is for someone to die attempting to repeat their feat.

Another thought here is that you really don't know these people. As you contemplate what motivations may be present, know also you might be observing bipolar mania, the boldness of anti anxiety drugs, maybe the loss of love - all things I have seen and known among climbers - that are not openly shared.

Rattlesnake Arch

Social climber

Home is where we park it

Jun 11, 2018 - 10:50am PT

An "accident" is just that, an accident. No one wanted it to happen.

Whether we want to participate in the sport, whether we want to encourage others participation, whether sponsors should promote the sport, whether it matters if there is a profit motive to any of the above, whether "safer" forms of climbing are ok...There are value judgements involved and they are all personal.

But the bottom line is...Climbing is our sport. If an accident causes the players to not support the game, then it certainly isn't going to help our cause amongst the non players, some of whom have the ability to regulate or otherwise affect it. I can see no benefit to sponsors withdrawing their support, or new rules prohibiting certain types of climbing in the national parks.

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Jun 11, 2018 - 11:20am PT

Fact: The darkest corner of the climbers soul knows the ultimate narcissistic feed is for someone to die attempting to repeat their feat.

That perhaps exists in some? But be careful not to project the sentiment too far onto the broader community.

A Essex

climber

Jun 11, 2018 - 11:54am PT

Fact: The darkest corner of the climbers soul knows the ultimate narcissistic feed is for someone to die attempting to repeat their feat.

This is interesting enough to deserve it's own thread.

condolences to family and friends of the departed.

I would guess many that are dabbling in the speed ascent game are re-evaluating their commitment to the practice. Is it worth it?! - the endless debate, but maybe some will place a piece of gear or two on easy terrain while simul-ing after this.

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Jun 11, 2018 - 12:21pm PT

"place a piece or two".

I wouldn't count on it. There are marks to be made and records to break.

Even now there are thoughts of sub one hour, I'm sure. Of course the partner will have to be dispensed with, same with the rope, rack and even the shirt on the back.

Reminds me of a movie from a few decades back called The Quick and the Dead. Similar motivations.

jstan

climber

Jun 11, 2018 - 12:27pm PT

You are asking too much from the wrong people.

We have a word for this practice.

Politics

Trump

climber

Jun 11, 2018 - 01:23pm PT

that is why we have ropes and gear

Yea. It’s why we have brains too.

Yet somehow our brains tell us to go out with perfect weather and enjoy a great day climbing doing some moderate new routing, risking getting the chop on easy ground for nothing (?) in a preventable accident, instead of just sitting in the meadow all day drinking beer. That just looks a little different in other people, god bless them.

looking sketchy there...

Social climber

Lassitude 33

Jun 11, 2018 - 02:18pm PT

I've really avoided commenting on this thread (except to convey my condolences to family).

Many of us have simul-climbed on easy terrain (usually with gear between), but sometimes not (and sometimes even simul-free-soloing). We were comfortable at the grade and it made sense to speed things along or even just for the fun of it. A slip could have proved disastrous.

The level at which climbers feel comfortable moving quickly, simul-climbing, or even free soloing is a constantly evolving matter, best judged by the participants.

We weren't sponsored, and from the looks of it, neither were these two gentlemen. But, so what if they were (or if others are)? [BTW, we would have loved to be sponsored, if such a thing were possible.]

Sponsorship certainly serves as a means to pursue your passion, travel and really devote yourself to climbing in a sustained way that is otherwise not possible. Yes, the constant Internet noise can be annoying, but both the Sponsor and the Climber benefit.

The supposition that elite [sponsored] climbers are feeling pressured to undertake risks that they would otherwise avoid isn't based upon any proffered facts. Rather, it seems to me that, if anything , perhaps this claim originates from a general uneasiness about the commercialization of climbing in general.

A very unfortunate accident that could have happened to many of us. My heart goes out to the families.