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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 22, 2016 - 11:48pm PT
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Here is my own,give me one problem in this world where the "free market" has come to the rescue and solved it.
What do you mean by "free market?" Certain conditions need to apply for a market to perform properly. Property rights probably top the list, along with predictable and consistent law enforcement.
The list where the market (meaning using prices to allocate goods and services) have rescued from benighted alternatives would overwhelm these pages and co-opt this thread, which was about dealing with climate change. Still, feeding the world's population would be a good start. Central planning killed millions of citizens in the USSR. Markets allocate food resources (and the resources needed to produce food) much more efficiently than centrally-regulated ones, or any other option.
Of course, those who decry our current population would point this out as a problem, not a rescue, but my retort is both mean and simple. If you contend the population is too high, why are you still alive? Any rational, moral answer to that question will include the need to feed the current population.
John
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 23, 2016 - 01:24am PT
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If you contend the population is too high, why are you still alive?
I think that is a false statement of the problem. We can certainly do a lot without killing ourselves, and killing ourselves won't help unless it happens at the birth rate...
since we will all die, a more effective attempt reducing the population would be to provide women the ability to plan their families.
The markets cannot expand exponentially, the resources are limited, so there is no market solution to the problem of providing food for an expanding population once those resource limits are reached.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 23, 2016 - 03:37am PT
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The markets cannot expand exponentially, the resources are limited, so there is no market solution to the problem of providing food for an expanding population once those resource limits are reached.
Food shortages are a similar issue we faced with water. Increased efficiency has bailed us out of the alleged water shortage.
There are huge gains to be had in our food production system
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S.full
At present, the US livestock population consumes more than 7 times as much grain as is consumed directly by the entire American population (11). The amount of grains fed to US livestock is sufficient to feed about 840 million people who follow a plant-based diet (7). From the US livestock population, a total of about 8 million tons (metric) of animal protein is produced annually. With an average distribution assumed, this protein is sufficient to supply about 77 g of animal protein daily per American. With the addition of about 35 g of available plant protein consumed per person, a total of 112 g of protein is available per capita in the United States per day (11). Note that the recommended daily allowance (RDA) for adults per day is 56 g of protein from a mixed diet. Therefore, based on these data, each American consumes about twice the RDA for protein. Americans on average are eating too much and are consuming about 1000 kcal in excess per day per capita (12, 13). The protein consumed per day on the lactoovovegetarian diet is 89 g per day. This is significantly lower than the 112 g for the meat-based diet but still much higher than the RDA of 56 g per day.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Nov 23, 2016 - 05:05am PT
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The only way out of this is a free market approach, and a huge financial enterprising incentive for some smart Americans (not Canadian’s – you can’t seem to get over yourselves pointing figures) to solve the problem – which they will do eventually.
BobSFranknose.
Sure,I could generalize that markets are responsible for some of the things you mentioned JE.Would that be an answer to the above.
Hardly.
I could also state that "free markets" are the reason we have this mess[CC],not to mention current war[s]..
So ,when you ask me what did I mean,give me a specific,just one ,where the free market solved any world problem.
That is what I mean.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 23, 2016 - 06:42am PT
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Do you think the "free market" has provided society with anything beneficial?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 23, 2016 - 07:11am PT
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How about a "Hands Across The World" event?
We can all sing Kumbaya...
then promise to do our darndest to minimize our carbon footprints.
It could work.
We won't know unless we try.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 23, 2016 - 08:50am PT
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How about a "Hands Across The World" event?
couldn't hurt...
but reducing the carbon footprint using a carbon tax will provide the incentives for people to choose what they want to pay for... you want to drive a Hummer around? you can, you just pay the price of the carbon emission... eat beef, sure thing, at added costs... buy that knick-knack manufactured in S.E. Asia and shipped, at less then $0.10/pound anywhere in the world... the price goes up, but you get to buy it if you want...
figuring all that out top down would be impossible, letting the market equilibrate naturally (with all the unexpected innovation, etc) would be much more efficient.
the revenue generated by the tax can be used to mitigate the burden on those people (and countries) that would be adversely affected by tax, but also to invest in the mitigations that reduce the carbon emissions, research AND development, incentives to use alternatives.
Energy will cost more because the costs will include the exhaust-end expenses, including the cost of alternative energy, whose production and implementation is currently carbon dependent.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:00am PT
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Carbon taxes only hurt the poor who use the least resources. You think Bono gives s damn about pollution on world tour with U2? Have you thought about the plight of the people commuting from Stockton to SF to work in the service industry? How much more will those carbon taxes cost them to earn a living?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:04am PT
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Bono does not have to give a sh it about pollution. With a stiff carbon tax on fuel the corporations running his jets are sure as hell going to find the most efficient way to make money. Classic free market operation
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:05am PT
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you can focus on what is taken away by a tax, but you should also think how the revenue of the tax could be distributed, which is equally important...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:10am PT
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How about a carrot? Instead of a ( tax ) stick?
Even Republicans will get behind a tax break.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:16am PT
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It would likely go to illegals as much if our social services do. Perhaps we should enforce our border and not allow a massive overpopulation of the US. Perhaps we should scrap NASA and any plans for the moon. Same for space tourism
CA fines people for using to much water- do the rich care? Same thing with a carbon tax
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:18am PT
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a carbon tax would affect everyone... as does the consequences of unabated CO2 release into the atmosphere, an atmosphere that is shared by everyone...
the planet is a shared resource for the entire human population... closing the boarders doesn't change that
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:19am PT
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It would affect the poor far more. As always that's of no concern for those doing fine
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:20am PT
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the use of the tax revenue can make the carbon tax progressive, alleviating the burden on those that cannot afford it as much as others
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:24am PT
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That's like saying illegals will lower the cost of arugula while not caring that they lower wages and increase job competition amongst the poor. The idea that a carbon tax will "trickle down" to the poor is absurd
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:24am PT
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It would likely go to illegals as much if our social services do. Perhaps we should enforce our border and not allow a massive overpopulation of the US. Perhaps we should scrap NASA and any plans for the moon. Same for space tourism
Here we go again. It's always about the damned illegals.
Dude, do you not understand that the world as a whole is overpopulated?
Note: I actually agree with you on something. I am in favor of reducing space exploration.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:26am PT
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The US is the worst polluter.how can you be concerned about the climate while promoting overpopulation? Same as the mars nonsense. It's hypocritical.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:38am PT
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Hypocritical my ass.
So you cannot have an opinion or stance against the oil machine when you are forced to be part of it. BS.
Renewables ,renewables,renewables. They are our way out of oil companies control.
Whilst creating a new economy.
Yes,I know you stockholders could suffer
Good.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:44am PT
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Wilbeer- its hypocritical to want to go to mars while saying you are concerned about climate change. You misunderstood my comment.
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