Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2018 - 01:52pm PT
|
Just think I could nuke this thread.
Oh the headiness of such power from just a few key strokes.
Carry on.
Susan. ;-)
|
|
EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
|
|
Thanks for posting up, atmourad.
|
|
TradMike
Trad climber
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
|
I just wanted to point out that Kap has donated $1M+ of his own cash to grassroots organizations that do the exact work you list, and more.
Like I said, when I see him go out and help the cause, I will respect him. Any rich person can donate some money to make themselves feel good. Otherwise, he is all talk and no action. Actually, no talk and no action. Just pissing off half the nation by spitting in their eye. There are much better ways to bring people together for a common cause. His way has to be the most backward that I have seen and counterproductive. He has made things worse in my view.
|
|
TradMike
Trad climber
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
|
Nice PIG socks Kaepernick!
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
Again Kap didn’t set out to be decisive or even plan for this to take on the life it has.
Part of the backlash is directly due to his motivations being lied about by Trump and the right wing media.
He has succeeded in bringing a ton of attention to his cause.
Personally I agree that he could have perhaps picked a better way to protest that didn’t incite so much misunderstanding and anger. But then again it wouldn’t have gotten near the publicity this has and many of the maybe 1/3 of Americans who are offended probably don’t care or believe in his cause anyway.
|
|
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
I’m more of a La Sportiva and Prana guy myself, but the kids are getting new Nike outfits and shoes tonight.
Of course those don’t cost that much so I’m gonna have to find a pair for myself, happy they don’t make climbing stuff, but a good set of road running shoes should do the trick.
|
|
atmourad
climber
|
|
Like I said, when I see him go out and help the cause, I will respect him.
What does "go out and help the cause" mean in this case? Should he consult 1 one 1 with folks to help them start their businesses? Should he tutor children himself? Would that then qualify? Would he then be "helping the cause"?
Fact of the matter is folks help with the assets that they have access to. For rich dudes that happens to be money. For folks without money that may be their time. For folks who are gifted orators that may be influencing and inspiring others. In your case you mentioned upthread it was advocating for more diverse hiring practices at your office. Labeling someone who has donated a of money to grassroots organizations and inspired thousands of others to do the same by raising awareness and leading by example as doing nothing is laughable.
I suppose Lebron James isn't really helping kids go to college either, he's just donating a ton of money to feel good about himself.
|
|
10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
|
|
As usual, Jody's retort is an ad hominem.
|
|
atmourad
climber
|
|
Couldn't agree more, couch. Well said. My comment about Lebron was full-on sarcasm. I think what he is doing is wonderful and I have a ton of respect for him for it.
|
|
Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
Lynne! A great suggestion!
Just for that, I'm taking Heidi to the Dolomites & Tuscanny on Weds. With any luck at all, Jody won't call me an idiot for three weeks.
|
|
TradMike
Trad climber
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
|
I love the #whitemansplaining in this thread.
You go boys, and tell a man how to protest police murders. You know all about it.
I'm glad y'all are butthurt about your football being ruined.
That is the whole damn point. You want to watch 90% Black Men represent you on the field, but won't do a damn thing for them off the field.
You protest murders but you don't insult all the great cops out there at the same time. There are bad eggs everywhere. Don't put the good ones in the same group - counterproductive more so than what he wanted to acheive.
I hate football. Horrible sport for the brain.
I hired 5 blacks this year.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Well, Kaepernick believes that white cops are killing innocent blacks, to him, that's what counts. For myself. I see that cops have killed 4 people (not separated for color, 4 total) year to date in Chicago. How many black men have killed other black men in the same local year to date? Its a shocking number. Feel free to guess.
Nice deflection from the issue at hand. Are you a Republican?
|
|
EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
|
|
Kaepernick's career was on the downside. What exactly did sacrifice?
Ex-jock anonymity?
|
|
SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2018 - 07:22pm PT
|
Nike and Footlocker shares took a hit today.
You know some things are more important than the almighty dollar...regardless of your perspective on this issue.
Reducing everything to dollars and cents is simplistic thinking. If it were an issue so close to your heart you know that any fiscal components related to it would pale in comparison to the morality or ethics of an issue.
Susan
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/05/the-57375-years-of-life-lost-to-police-violence/559835/
I quote: "Of the 1,146 and 1,092 victims of police violence in 2015 and 2016, respectively, the authors found 52 percent were white, 26 percent were black, and 17 percent were Hispanic."
Well, 26% seems high, given that the proportion of blacks in society is about 13%. The Hispanic proportion tracks pretty closely to their proportion of society, as does the white proportion. So, why the anomaly regarding blacks?
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime
This data is verified and repeated all over the Internet, for what that's worth, and it does derive directly from FBI stats. The point is: "In 2013, the FBI has black criminals carrying out 38 per cent of murders, compared to 31.1 per cent for whites. The offender's race was 'unknown' in 29.1 per cent of cases. What about violent crime more generally? FBI arrest rates are one way into this. Over the last three years of data – 2011 to 2013 – 38.5 per cent of people arrested for murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault were black."
So, it's not just "myth" that blacks are indeed disproportionately perpetrating violent crimes, you know, the sorts of crimes that cops take very seriously and often with guns drawn.
Indeed, the catalyst case, Michael Brown, is about the poorest example that a "movement" could be founded upon, as "hands up, don't shoot" is a meme based upon a lie. Michael Brown was a thug, not a "gentle giant." Michael Brown made the fatal mistake of thinking that he was above the law and could even beat on a police officer with impunity. Pretty pathetic case upon which to base a "movement."
So, one has to seriously ask: Is there REALLY a problem with blacks being singled out by cops for "special condemnation" at the point of a gun? Kaepernick says merely "this [has to stop]," assuming that his vague pronoun is common currency and almost universally (except by some "racists") perceived to be true. But is it?
I quote again from channel4news, "There is evidence in the official police-recorded figures that black Americans are more likely to commit certain types of crime than people of other races. While it would be naïve to suggest that there is no racism in the US criminal justice system, victim reports don't support the idea that this is because of mass discrimination."
But, I guess that channel4news and countless other sites, including Washington Post, are all populated by racists.
What "needs to stop" is blacks killing each other and engaging in a vastly disproportionate amount of violent crime. If indeed there needs to be something like a BLM movement, it really should focus on an ACTUAL problem rather than a mythical one that doesn't withstand critical and data-based analysis.
Of course, the major issue in this sort of discussion is that "data" is interpreted. I've read many articles that take the same data and draw conclusions from it like, "...white police officers actually kill black and other minority suspects at lower rates than we would expect if killings were randomly distributed among officers of all races. But this research suggests the real problem is the entrenched set of biases and assumptions that pervade police forces, influencing the attitudes and actions of cops of all colors." (Found at: https://psmag.com/social-justice/black-cops-are-just-as-likely-as-whites-to-kill-black-suspects)
So, what we have in this article is an argument that goes like this: "The data does not support a claim of racist, white cops gunning down blacks. But we KNOW (somehow) that there is 'institutionalized racism,' so it just must be much more 'subtle' than we originally thought. Thus, it is 'entrenched bias' (even among the black cops themselves) that makes them shoot blacks at disproportionate rates."
Somehow, even when admitting that the data does not support the myth of the racist white cop, it never occurs to the researchers that the obvious answer is itself contained in the very data they are assessing: Blacks IN FACT commit a hugely disproportionate percentage of violent crimes (for whatever reasons), and, thus, they encounter cops disproportionately often and in contexts in which ANY cop (regardless of race) is going to be more amped up.
Getting to the bottom of why blacks are disproportionately violent (especially toward each other) would go further toward solving an ACTUAL problem than pretending that the problem is something that it's not and thereby trying to "fix" what isn't an actual problem.
Of course, the "why" question leads into murky waters indeed. But that's still a more productive thing to talk about than "this [has to stop]," as though the "this" is well-defined and objective fact. It is neither, and "not buying it" doesn't make one a racist.
|
|
thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
|
|
to be fair, mb is a white guy talking about white guy problems. it's a tough world out there.
Also, I respect MB for his casual and dispersonal human relationship with michael brown. i never knew you two were homies, eh? (imho mb you just shat pn a strangers' ropes)
|
|
Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
madbolter1! Re the first part of your post:
I quote: "Of the 1,146 and 1,092 victims of police violence in 2015 and 2016, respectively, the authors found 52 percent were white, 26 percent were black, and 17 percent were Hispanic."
Well, 26% seems high, given that the proportion of blacks in society is about 13%. The Hispanic proportion tracks pretty closely to their proportion of society, as does the white proportion. So, why the anomaly regarding blacks?
You and channel 4 can spew all day that blacks commit more crimes for their percent of America's population, but why does that work out to the cases we see on the news of blacks getting killed by cops, for running away, or just being black?
|
|
Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
|
|
Youth in disenfranchised populations. Are you suggesting otherwise?
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
Of all the stupid right wing victimhood pity parties I’ve seen, whitey righty butthurt over kaepernick about takes the cake.
Newsflash, reactionary troglodytes: many people of color have a complicated relationship with cops, our flag, and socially compulsory displays of patriotism.
Btw: wtf does black on black crIme have to do with any of this? You might as well blame him for Benghazi (ooo there’s a dumb idea for you!)
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
to be fair, mb is a white guy talking about white guy problems. it's a tough world out there.
Also, I respect MB for his casual and dispersonal human relationship with michael brown. i never knew you two were homies, eh? (imho mb you just shat pn a strangers' ropes)
Wait. So now facts are racist?
Do I need to be his "homie" to query, "Look, you knock over a convenience store (caught on tape), assault the proprietor, then assault a cop and it's some big injustice that you get shot?"
Facts are facts. If they don't fit your agenda, perhaps change your agenda to conform with the facts.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!