Another active shooter armed stand off in progress.

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madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:45am PT
They seem to be a veritable rainbow of fringe thinking. Are you of the secure hacienda, chemtrails, guns, gold standard, constitution-as-fossil, or the black-guberment-helicopter camp?

Flat out, knee-slapping funny.

Also, flat out, knee-slapping straw-manning.

My position is simple: When you want a law to control me, you have to demonstrate how your negative rights are violated if such a control is not in place. Staying on topic here, my possession and carrying of a gun violates NONE of your rights. So, you have no right to try to control my possession and carrying of it.

If you want laws to control the "bad guys'" possession and carrying of a gun, because you are worried that they MIGHT violate one or more of your rights, then you merely have to get over two bars: 1) demonstrate how you can control the bad guys (who, you say, MIGHT violate one of your rights) without controlling me (who is neither violating nor potentially violating one of your rights); 2) demonstrate the causal connection between the proposed controls of the bad guys and the protection of your rights.

The gun-control crowd has done neither and doesn't even have a good idea about how to do either. ALL they can propose is to violate the well-established rights of everybody in the vague, disconnected hope that they can PERHAPS "affect the odds" of POTENTIAL violations of the rights of somebody. After all, "we've gotta do something!"

A classical libertarian believes that the default position should be to do nothing and that it takes getting over BOTH bars mentioned above before you should consider "doing something."
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:52am PT
The gun-control crowd .... doesn't even have a good idea about how to do either.
Wrong.

Repeal the 2nd Amendment.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:55am PT

you got cops go'in to starbucks? they must be overpaid.

Cops and firemen get free brewed coffee almost anywhere in this town. Show up around 9:00 and the place looks like the cops descended on a crime scene.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:55am PT
Start by melting down 2/3 of the weapons currently in the possession of free americans. Title, license and insure the remaining hundred million guns.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:58am PT
Repeal the 2nd Amendment.

That was a mind-numbing suggestion insofar as it addressed neither of the points to which the word "idea" was referring.

The points were: 1) demonstrate how you can control the bad guys....

Oh, sheesh. Why bother?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:00am PT
Start by down 2/3 of the weapons currently in the possession of free americans.

How you gonna do it?

How you gonna do it without violating the rights of those free Americans?

Title, license and insure the remaining hundred million guns.

How's it going to have ANY effect on incidents like this latest one?

How's it going to TOUCH the bad guys that are the ones that need touching?


Edit: IUDs are already illegal. Oh, silly me. I mean IEDs. Well, I guess that depending upon whether you're left or right, it amounts to about the same thing.

Anyway, there should be NO IEDs in the possession of everyday citizens. Right? Not a 2/3 reduction! NONE!

So, there outta be a law! Oh, wait, there already is. Dang those criminals that just WILL NOT be controlled!
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:16am PT
I know this is posted on CNN and that is always questionable but in reading this article and the links I'm wondering where the flaws are. So help me understand why would anyone defend this aspect of the NRA? Serious question.

Though I don't agree with much of what madbolter writes I do respect his opinion as well as a few others on this thread that at least appear to be able to think for themselves. So maybe he or they could take a stab at it and share their perspective.

Obviously any Republican might take offense at the tone of the article but if one can get past that I'd really be interested in knowing the "other side" of the why hasn't this happened yet.

Thanks

from http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/opinions/wheeler-nra-guns-terrorists/index.html

David R. Wheeler is a freelance writer and a journalism professor at the University of Tampa. Follow him on Twitter: @David_R_Wheeler. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the author.

(CNN)During this holiday season, if some of your loved ones are Republican, consider giving them the gift of a reality check.

I know there are plenty of sane Republicans out there. I've met some. In fact, years ago, I was a registered Republican myself. That phase lasted right up to the point where I noticed a new world order of haves and have-nots, with terms dictated by Wall Street and Silicon Valley. Nowadays, I stare at the party in bewilderment.

The latest mind-numbing puzzle: The GOP is blocking a law that would prevent known and suspected terrorists from buying guns.

This is not just a what-if scenario. The nonpartisan Government Accountability Office recently released a report showing that from 2004 to 2014, people on terrorism watch lists successfully purchased guns no fewer than 2,043 times.

Yes, you read that right.

In light of the horrific shooting in San Bernardino, California, that killed at least 14 people, President Barack Obama spoke on Wednesday about the need to reform gun laws.

He also added, "For those who are concerned about terrorism of, you know, some may be aware of the fact that we have a no fly list where people can't get on planes, but those same people who we don't allow to fly could go into a store right now in the United States and buy a firearm and there's nothing that we can do to stop them."

There are 700,000 people on the terrorist watch list, and when these people tried to legally purchase guns, they had a success rate of 91%.

"Membership in a terrorist organization does not prohibit a person from possessing firearms or explosives under current federal law," the GAO warned back in 2010.

This situation has a simple solution: Pass a law that stops known and suspected terrorists from buying guns.

In fact, just such a bill was introduced earlier this year, and it has a pretty straightforward name: The Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2015. It was introduced by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, and Rep. Peter King, R-New York -- one of those sane Republicans I was talking about.

Can you guess which villain defeated the bill? I'll give you a hint: The initials are NRA.

"It's sort of a knee-jerk reaction," King told the New York Daily News. "The National Rifle Association is strongly opposed to it, and the fact is we have only a handful of Republican co-sponsors."

That's right. The National Rifle Association is so powerful that it can ensure that common-sense bills keeping guns away from potential terrorists are blocked in Congress.

In objecting to versions of the bill, the NRA used the same worn-out rhetoric they've been using for decades; namely, passing such a law won't stop criminals from illegally acquiring guns.

There is no law that would stop all criminals from ever using a gun. But we need every tool possible to fight gun violence, especially in an era when mass shootings have become a regular occurrence and when terrorists use guns as their weapon of choice.

When George W. Bush was president, he was one of those Republicans who often ignored calls for a reality check. But even he understood the need to fix this loophole in the law. In 2007, his administration proposed the legislation, but by the time it was introduced two years later, the NRA called up its buddies in Congress and stopped the bill.

After the terror attacks in Paris last month, some gun-rights advocates in the United States pointed out that France's strict gun-control laws did not stop the violence. But there are three important counterarguments.

First, we don't know how many would-be attackers were successfully stopped by France's laws. Crimes that don't happen don't make headlines. For national security reasons, it's rare to hear about thwarted plots.

Second, the numbers show a definitive contrast regarding gun violence between our countries. In France, the gun death rate is about 2.83 per 100,000 people; in the U.S. it's 10.69 per 100,000 people. In other words, the U.S. gun death rate is more than triple that of France.

The third counterargument, and perhaps most important one, is the message we're sending by failing to act.

If we can't close a loophole that allows known and suspected terrorists to legally purchase guns, what does that say about us? What does that say about special interest groups' ability to "buy" politicians? What are our children learning about how democracy works in America when even the majority of gun owners support laws preventing people on terror watch lists from buying guns?

This holiday season, in addition to the gifts of sweaters, ties and books that you're giving your Republican loved ones, also consider giving them a reality check.

Their party has been overtaken by zealots, and we need rational voices to come to the rescue.

Additional links:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/16/why-the-nra-opposed-laws-to-prevent-suspected-terrorists-from-buying-guns/

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=e0e0dab0-d7d7-4dca-83da-7b68f5be2b47

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:31am PT
There's those 'free americans' again; I love that one.

No one's rights were being violated by the guy open carrying in the street in CS a bit ago and so 911 wouldn't dispatch on it. Well, they weren't being violated until they were violently violated.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:41am PT
Thank you for your approach to the question, Delhi Dog. I've gotta head to bed, but I'll say two things in response to your question:

1) I'm no friend (or member) of the NRA. I often find their positions by turn: unprincipled, knee-jerk, hyper-defensive, and pandering.

That said....

2) What concerns me about the phrase "known or suspected terrorists" used as justification for legislating away rights is that "terrorists" is itself not a well-defined term, and "known or suspected" does NOT equate to "convicted."

Every citizen IS a law-abiding citizen unless CONVICTED otherwise by a jury of peers. The mere fact that the bought-and-paid-for government-of-the-moment labels somebody as a "known or suspected terrorist" doesn't equate to a conviction that justifies infringing their rights.

See, the problem is that there is precious little "watching" of the people on these "watch lists!" Witness the Boston Marathon bombers. These "watch lists" are not worth the paper (bytes) they are written on.

The net effect is that the government USES these incidents to froth up the public in a bid for yet more on-paper control, when it also knows full well that it lacks the capacity to make GOOD use of that control once it has it. CONTROL simpliciter is what power-mongers want. "Your best interest" is the lie it tells to soothe you to sleep while it forces your head down onto the pillow.

Oh, wait. Here on a public forum I'm bad-mouthing the intentions and basic integrity of our duly-elected government. I must be a closet terrorist. AND I've publicly stated that I'm armed! Call the FBI and Homeland Security! Put me on a "watch list."

See, the word "terrorist" has virtually no meaning, since it can be cast to mean anything needed for convenience. Yet it is employed like a technical term with rigorous meaning. It's all a giant shell game.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:45am PT
Well, they weren't being violated until they were violently violated.

And THAT is the point. We do not live in Minority Report! We do NOT engage in pre-crime enforcement!

We do not presume to know somebody's actual intentions until they act on them.

If you want a pre-crime police state, then MOVE to one of them. I hear that Singapore is a nice place to live. There's not even graffiti to disturb the splendor of the almost complete control.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 02:22am PT
CONTROL simpliciter is what power-mongers want.

The paranoia is palpable. And it's all an intellectual hyper-fantasy. But, taking up the fantasy, just how long do you suppose that free americans could hold out once the guberment turned off electricity, gas, water, gasoline, food distribution and shutdown fast food joints. I'd give'em a couple of days to a couple of weeks, max.



Oh, and let me guess, ISIS rhetoric clearly incited this couple to an act of workplace violence, but incendiary gop campaign rhetoric had no influence on the planned parenthood shooter. Got it.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 3, 2015 - 04:58am PT
Thanks for the reply MB and your thoughts. You too Healyje:-)

I do get the "innocent until proven guilty" part of our system. And that is something I hold to be sacred. And our government doesn't have the best track record (witness the Patriot Act for example) as it applies to citizens.
I also have first hand experience with red flags and being stopped at the "border".

A short story for example...We were returning to the US a few years ago and as we were going through passport control in LA our youngest daughter's (then she was 17) name came up on some "watch list".

She had to answer some questions and the scrutiny was real. Since we were coming from India somehow her name came up with connections to the Mumbai bombings that had recently happened. Long story short there obviously was a "glitch" in the system and the officer had the common sense to see we were a family, we were teachers returning for summer vacation and we had all the right documentation to back that up. We've also been to many of the ME countries so the combinations might have been the tipping point.

It didn't bother me though. I was glad someone was checking even if they were wrong. Would I have felt the same if they took her away for further interrogation? Probably, but I also know that we had nothing to hide too so although it would have been a hassle I get it.

Surely if we're all working together and have the best interest of our country in mind we can make some of what is proposed in that article work. Maybe I'm just naive and a dummy but I do know the NRA does not have the best interest of everyone in mind, but rather the money made in the selling of fear to John Q. public.

Unfortunately our country's education has been going downhill for years and one of the major results of that is the inability for the public to think critically and to question what is being put out by the media, the government, and the internet wankers...

So, I have no answers but it sure frustrates me too see how so many of us have become such sheep.
Already you can see posters here pulling the Muslim card simply because these shooters have names that sound Islamic. Maybe there is a connection maybe not, but certainly the brain trust here on SP isn't too keen on the idea of "innocent until proven guilty."

Throw a Trump card into that and good luck USA. Right now it's guilty until proven innocent or in this case, "terrorist" until proven not.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:00am PT
Farouk???? I told y'all not to piss him off.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:29am PT
madbolter posted
My position is simple: When you want a law to control me, you have to demonstrate how your negative rights are violated if such a control is not in place. Staying on topic here, my possession and carrying of a gun violates NONE of your rights. So, you have no right to try to control my possession and carrying of it.

This is nice libertarian rhetoric but has no foundation in current law or the constitution. I agree with the concept as a principal to be considered but we regulate all kinds of things that don't harm other people. Additionally, it's more than a little bit of a stretch to argue that weapons are not inherently dangerous. I sympathize with your desire to carry a weapon but the reality of how guns are used has created a clear line where one cannot both believe in our current regime of widespread gun ownership and also pretend to care about gun violence. Your position (and that of our country at large, currently) can accurately be characterized as "my right to carry a gun is more important than the public's right to protect itself from gun violence."
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:03am PT
For those arguing that gun reforms are ineffective I suggest a review of the original "Assault weapons" ban and it's subsequent repeal. Then try to argue away the facts.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:10am PT
The assault weapons ban from the 90's may have had some effective elements but in general gun enthusiasts appear to be correct that a lot of the criteria used by legislators are focused on cosmetic features and not performance. Real legislation would focus on holding people/companies responsible for the guns they sell/own, limiting rate of fire/caliber and limiting magazine size. All of this will require a significant culture change with a public health focus similar to smoking or obesity. Places we can start is with demanding strict record keeping on gun use, lifting the bans on public health research related to gun safety and encourage public health professionals and institutions to address gun safety and violent culture as an issue. This will require that we lift state bans on these things such as the measure in Florida.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/08/doctors-cant-ask-about-guns/375566/
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:13am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:15am PT
How can he possibly know that? I bet he doesn't even own a gun!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:33am PT
How can he possibly know that?

Yeah, how can he know that since the NRA has outlawed research into gun violence.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:34am PT
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