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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 13, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
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I really enjoyed the article recommended above by a Tunisian Muslim immigrant to Holland about how he transitioned from anger to understanding through reading a lot of literature about alienation. The letters to the editor about this article are equally interesting, coming as they do from the highly educated readership of the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/opinion/the-anger-of-europes-young-marginalized-muslims.html
Two points struck me.
Many Jewish people argued that they were treated even worse in Christian Europe but they did not resort to terrorism. Frankly, I think this was probably the result of not having the technology to do so (and the spread of that technology is thanks to the greed of western capitalists), and also, that the Holocaust probably demonstrates that they should have armed themselves and stood up against their persecution. Only in the Warsaw ghetto did they fight back and a few people there stalled the Nazis for many weeks. If anything, it seems to me the Jewish experience in Europe is an argument in favor of not always being pacifists.
The other point that struck me was the Muslim's argument that the more his teacher defended free speech at all costs with logic and reason, the angrier he got. I often have this argument on the religion vs science threads as well. For a professional scientist it is hard to imagine that not all people think it's a good thing to be logical all the time. Thus I don't think that reasoned arguments for complete free speech are going to convert any offended young Muslims.
So what will work? That is the question. Again, I would say that the American example of being tolerant of all religions and our political correctness no matter how tedious and ridiculous, has worked better with our Muslim population, not to mention our greater economic opportunity, than the welfare and secularism of Europe.
I'm sure there are many who will disagree, but I look forward to the comments.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 13, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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Agreed. The as yet imperfect but emerging American model of live and let live with regards to religions is the peaceful way forward to mutual understanding and acceptance.
Our separation of church and state remains imperfect - witness the recent SCOTUS decision on Hobby Lobby - in support of its religious defiance of the Affordable Care Act's requirement for company supplied health insurance to include family planning services in its base level plans. While marital equality marches forward at pace (21 states passed anti-gay-marriage laws or amendments between 2005 and 2007 - a mere 7 years later 35 states now grant equal marriage rights for all citizens), a woman's right to reproductive freedom is quickly eroding thanks Christian funded family planning restrictions, Catholic owed hospitals (20% of all beds in this country), and Christian run corporations such as Hobby Lobby.
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John M
climber
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Jan 13, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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For a professional scientist it is hard to imagine that not all people think it's a good thing to be logical all the time.
I don't believe that it is logic that is the problem, rather that when one is attached to something through the heart, or through desire, then logic isn't always strong enough. An addict can understand that logically what they are doing is harmful to themselves, and they can even want to change, but they lack sufficient will to change. So logic is not the problem. Attachment and lack of sufficient will is. It takes time and sometimes compassion to overcome attachment.
Hopefully I am being clear.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 13, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
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Very clear. If those young European Muslims felt compassion instead of alienation from the surrounding society, then extremism would not have its appeal.
When I lived in Europe, many people there expressed the idea that they were glad all their dissidents went to America, and they didn't have to deal with them anymore. Sometimes, they would even ask, "why do you put up with people like the Amish?" which always left me speechless. What I perceived eventually, especially in France, with its high degree of secularization built into law, is that they had converted their religious narrow mindedness of previous centuries to a secular narrow mindedness instead.
I believe it is our good fortune that we have so many religious nonconformists in our country, as much of a pain as they can be at times, because it has resulted in no established religion or non religion. We are not secular as the French. Muslim girls can wear head scarfs in Detroit to school if they want. That I think has brought us much more peace.
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John M
climber
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Jan 13, 2015 - 01:11pm PT
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What I perceived eventually, especially in France, with its high degree of secularization uilt into law, is that they had converted their religious narrow mindedness of previous centuries to a secular narrow mindedness instead.
good point..
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 14, 2015 - 07:10pm PT
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"Allons enfants de le banlieue,
le jour de sang est arivee!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 14, 2015 - 11:33pm PT
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I for one, am glad that the New York Times has not reprinted them and many other papers in England and the U.S. Viva the Anglo Saxon Difference !
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 14, 2015 - 11:59pm PT
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Just make sure they're organic and cage free!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 15, 2015 - 12:24am PT
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Foul but not fowl. I can accept that.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 07:28am PT
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"I for one, am glad that the New York Times has not reprinted them and many other papers in England and the U.S.... -Jan"
Jan!!!!!!111
"And your daughters should watch what they wear, they should cover up. Assaulting women and girls is bad BUT they should not provoke men to assault." /sarcasm
The Pope yesterday...
“One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people’s faith, one cannot make fun of faith.”
http://time.com/3668875/pope-francis-charlie-hebdo/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/pope-francis-climate-change-is-mainly-our-fault-and-man-has-gone-too-far/article22457775/
So, in addition to a battle of ideas, it looks like we also have in play here a battle of attitudes.
"Attitude is everything."
How convenient though. Don't "make fun" of a religion. By extension, don't "make fun" of MY religion. Well, one man's "insult" is another's criticism or challenge. Sorry. Criticism or challenge is means to innovation and progress, something the Abrahamic religions are clearly sorely in need of.
How about the brutes or thugs or trogs - whether religious or over-sexed or whatever, educate themselves? and learn to manage themselves and their feelings better now that we live under the auspices of a higher civilization?
“You can’t provoke, you can’t insult the faith of others, you can’t make fun of faith.”-Pope Francis
Bullsh#t.
Today's world ain't yesterday's world.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jan 15, 2015 - 08:13am PT
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"Free Speech" can be a troublesome thing and that's good.
When you hide behind Free Speech to constantly attack and marginalize a huge segment of your population then the fallout will sometimes be dire. Poor people who feel marginalized are easy prey for people to turn them towards violence, often for their own agendas.
It reminds me of the anti-black literature in our own country's history, some of which featured disparaging cartoons and children's books.
If you keep poking the bear, eventually the bear will poke back. It doesn't justify what happened in France but it's not a surprise.
I think all 'organized' religions are absurd. Interesting but absurd(for me). At the same time I respect those people who are devout to their faiths. To stand on a platform in some public place and constantly and graphically ridicule someone for their religion or race doesn't seem productive to me. But to each his own....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 08:42am PT
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When you "hide"?
The majority of thoughtful people critiquing Islam today on a basis of its outdated ideas are not "hiding" behind the Freedom of Expression principle.
So the statement though true in cases is not applicable here.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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You're even worst HFCS, you hide behind anonymity and can't even stand behind your words and
yet constantly attack and try to marginalize sh!t you know nothing about.
Just plain spewing academic bubble boy knowledge is all you have .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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I think all 'organized' religions are absurd. Interesting but absurd(for me). At the same time I respect those people who are devout to their faiths.
Respecting people and respecting ideas are different things.
To stand on a platform in some public place and constantly and graphically ridicule someone for their religion or race doesn't seem productive to me.
Regarding productivity, I would disagree. Great gains have been made in recent years at unprecedented rates. Here in America and esp abroad. By people getting involved. Eg, taking interest in the international community. Speaking up in public places. And words like "insulting" or "ridicule" - like "hiding" are biased, tendentious words - words those on the progressive side in the war of ideas (or war of attitudes) obviously wouldn't use. "Criticizing" or "challenging" in the interest of innovation, progress, higher civilization would be more likely.
But to each his own....
Agree.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 15, 2015 - 09:24am PT
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Well thought out criticism is one thing and the New York Times has published plenty of thoughtful articles and editorials on the problems of Islam and modernization. Gratuitous vulgar cartoons are different. If nothing else there's a difference in level of aesthetics and taste.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 09:34am PT
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"Well-thought out" is one angle, "gratuitous vulgar" another. Probably both have their place in the mvt / progress of ideas.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 09:35am PT
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We can easily find the cartoons so the argument about the Times not re-printing them is not particularly relevant.
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Chugach
Trad climber
Vermont
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2015 - 09:58am PT
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Scrubbing Bubbles...Jan 14, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
Is it really asking too much to just stop drawing cartoons of Mohammed?
No, it's a fair request. We should stop drawing cartoons of Mohammed or any other gods and deities for that matter. Personally, I think cartoons are silly and don't see why we allow them in a civil society. And since social commentary is equally hurtful, I think we need to reconsider that. Personally, I'm not sure what we gain in criticizing politicians and that seems troublesome as well. Abusive spouses, not my concern either, I'll refrain from passing judgement on them.
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