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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Aug 14, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
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6653 "authorized firearms officers" like my friend A in my previous post.
I thought it was your friend B.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 14, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
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That was a test to see if you were paying attention!
(fixed it)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 14, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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Hahahahaha, lying idiot. If you ever got a single fact into that little pea brain of yours, it'd be a miracle.
Too, too funny! Two points about your response are hilarious:
1) The site from which you quote labels itself as: "Real Liberal Politics." Nuff said on that point.
2) The very first paragraph sustains Ron's claim: "Yes, in sheer numbers Chicago leads the nation’s cities in murders...."
Of COURSE a "Real Liberal" site is then going to take the facts (that it even admits) and cast them in terms that make ITS case! To be expected, but certainly not some "objective" grounds for calling Ron's claim "pea brained."
LOL... remember "Lies, damned lies, and statistics?"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 14, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
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That it is in fact more dangerous as you are more likely to end up in armed confrontation and the other guy is almost certainly to have the advantages of intent and surprise. Not to mention that the chance of an armed intruder coming into your house while you are there is extremely small.
Your overarching point about training is well-taken, and I would be wholeheartedly in favor of a sweeping education campaign to get armed Americans closer to the intent of the founders on this point!
However, this bit about "intent and surprise" doesn't fly for me. If there IS an armed confrontation with an intruder in my house, believe me, I am the one with "intent" in that situation. And I know my own house far better than he does. So, I think I've got a good shot at surprise (pun intended).
And, if there really IS an "extremely small chance" of the intruder and my family ever seeing each other, then the force of your points (even potentially) utterly evaporates!
edit: I mean, which is it? Either I am "more likely to end up in armed confrontation," or there is an "extremely small chance." You can't have it both ways: one way to make one point and the other way to make another point!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 14, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
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1) The site from which you quote labels itself as: "Real Liberal Politics." Nuff said on that point. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/home
the site I quoted (and Real Liberal Politics references) is Australian, non-partisan and partially funded by the Swiss Federal Department of Foreign Affairs.
nicely done madbolter1, taking my words out of context
The need to protect yourself and home with a gun is nonsense. That it is in fact more dangerous……. If I have to put it differently, I will:
That if even if you have a gun, there is an extremely small chance that an armed intruder will enter your house and IF it happens the intruder has the benefit of surprise….
If you think that's having it both ways then I can't help you. I'm actually conjoining three related reasons that policeman "B" with advanced firearm training and I both think the belief that you need a gun for self defense is silly.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Aug 14, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
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People like madbolter will in the long run get guns made illegal.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Aug 14, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
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But, that said, ANY individual has the right to engage in civil disobedience based upon their own interpretation of what really is legal. And if a huge proportion of local LEOs are finding gun control laws both dangerous and unconstitutional, then perhaps that's worthy of note.
I for one can't wait to see how few of those LEO's will risk putting their jobs and pensions on the line by doing anything illegal to challenge these laws. I'd genuinely welcome it as it would bring these laws to the supreme court faster.
TE
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 14, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
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If you think that's having it both ways then I can't help you.
LOL, the way you are wording it NOW is indeed not having it both ways. But the way you worded it before WAS having it both ways. Thanks for the clarification. I see that what you intended to say was not what you originally said. No problem; clarity is difficult to achieve in natural languages, even given the best of intentions.
Like I posted earlier, this guy has the worst critical reasoning faculties on the site
Awww, there you go again, buttering me up and all that. Coming from you, such statements act as a double negative, which, unless my terrible reasoning skills are failing me, means a positive. [bows modestly] Thank you, thank you!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 14, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
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huge proportion of local LEOs are finding gun control laws both dangerous and unconstitutional unsupported generalization.
http://www.factcheck.org/2013/04/nra-misrepresents-police-survey-legislation/
Read this article to get the not so neatly packaged truth.
, it was a self-selected Internet poll, in which more than 15,000 of PoliceOne.com’s 400,000 registered members chose to respond, either because of email solicitation or a link to the survey on the PoliceOne.com website.
And there was no question asking whether “background checks” would have an “effect on violent crime.” “Do you think that a federal law prohibiting private, non-dealer transfers of firearms between individuals would reduce violent crime?” Nearly 80 percent of respondents answered “no.” The question says nothing about requiring background checks, which would be much different than prohibiting private transfers, period.
When the very same survey specifically asked about background checks and mass shootings the results were significantly different.
The survey asked, “Would requiring mental health background checks on prospective buyers in all gun sales from federally-licensed dealers reduce instances of mass shooting incidents?” Forty-five percent said no, and 31 percent said yes. The remainder were unsure. But the NRA said nothing about this.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 14, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
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Forty-five percent said no
LOL
So, you find where they cast the question "just right," and they STILL couldn't get most of those pesky LEOs to give the "right" answer.
I don't know... seems to me like your latest post helped establish the generalization.
'Course, my reasoning skills and all....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
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I didn't know this:
"no one gets a permit in California to carry a gun on the streets—except for law enforcement and some DAs. So the average citizen has no business carrying a firearm on him, period. If you’re out in public—or even in another person’s home—and you’re involved in an incident while carrying a gun, you’re in trouble."
Good to know.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/self-defense-and-the-law
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 15, 2013 - 12:40am PT
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no one gets a permit in California to carry a gun on the streets—except for law enforcement and some DAs.
Feinstein got one. Power has its perks.
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Crack-N-Up
Big Wall climber
South of the Mason Dixon line
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Aug 15, 2013 - 02:19am PT
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Don't worry, I will never try to change a liberal anti gun advocate's opinion. Not worth my time. They can run their mouths and try to change my opinion all they like.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 15, 2013 - 02:27am PT
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HFCS,
Thanks for posting that article link. That was extremely interesting and well worth reading!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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Feinstein got one. Power has its perks. Yes, after she had received numerous death threats and one assassination attempt, while she was a San Francisco supervisor.
She gave it up long ago.
In 1995 a hearing on terrorism after the Oklahoma City bombing, Feinstein recounted how, in the 1970s, she was the target of the New World Liberation Front which first attempted to blow up her home. After the bomb failed to detonate, Feinstein explained, she decided to arm herself.
"Later the same group shot out all the windows of my home and I know the sense of helplessness that people feel. I know the urge to arm yourself, because that’s what I did. I was trained in firearms," Feinstein said in the 1995 hearing.
"When I walked to the hospital when my husband was sick, I carried a concealed weapon," she said. "I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out I was going to take them with me. Now having said all of that, that was a period of time ago and I’ve watched through these 20 years as terrorism has increased both on the far extremist left and the far extremist right in this country."
Feinstein got rid of the permit once the New World Liberation Front was no longer a threat to her.
Sometime before 1995
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/273989-feinstein-doesnt-have-concealed-carry-permit-anymore
You got a good reason to fear deadly violence? You can get a concealed weapon permit in California. You get it from your county Sheriff. And you don't need proof of training. Ease of obtaining the permit varies widely by county. You want one in SF or LA County? You probably have to have a VERY good reason.
Go get it in one of the rural counties. It's valid statewide.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 15, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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You need a gun to safely backpack? I'm glad I don't live in your world.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Aug 15, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
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Sure am glad I had my pistol in my house when a meth head broke in with a knife.
I told him he would die if he did not leave. Then I racked a shell.
Heard the door close behind him.
What would you guys have done?
Or the time I was carrying, and 4 latino's tried to jump me in downtown SF. Once again, racked a shell and asked them if they wanted to die.
Those guys are pretty fast runners.
Thanks for all of your thoughts on gun control. I am quite happy with all of my firearms, and the PROTECTION they deliver in a trained hand.
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frank wyman
Mountain climber
montana
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Aug 15, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
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I bring a gun while hiking in wilderness(large gun)as there are always a threat of GRIZZLEYS and and ocational murderer on the run from Calif.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 15, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
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The basic problem ALL of the gun control advocates have is that at heart they honestly do not believe in individual rights and liberties. They are fundamentally communitarians, so they believe in a VERY different America than the founders (federalists and anti-federalists alike) set up. They make perceived consequences and highly-interpreted statistics trump individual rights and liberties, because ALL individual values must be derived from and work to support the (nanny) state.
What we have here is not just a "failure to communicate;" it's incommensurable paradigms, so even the underlying definitions of the "same words" are not the same.
Posters to this thread largely have their paradigms firmly fixed. The question every "lurker" on this thread needs to consider is: Do you want to live in the land of the free and the home of the BRAVE, or do you want to live in the land of the repressed and the home of those seeking security (provided BY the nanny state) against every possible threat (including your own tendency to drink too large a soda in one sitting)?
If the former is your choice, then you will resoundingly reject the pre-crime, communitarian ideals. If the latter is your choice, then you explicitly choose to "sacrifice a little liberty for a little security," and you SHALL ultimately have neither.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 15, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
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Excellent posts, Tioga. Bravo!
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