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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jun 23, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
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jghedge
Stop the ridiculous black-white spinning...
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 23, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
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Folks really do not have any idea what it takes to keep them safe.
Only stupid Americans create an unsafe situation in the first place and then make stupid laws and rules to fix the same unsafe situations they simultaneously continually keep going.
Then the stupid Americans preach to the whole world how they are trying to keep everyone safe.
All while building an unsafe world.
Americans are the stupidest people on the planet ......
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jun 23, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
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"The fall-out from Snowden's leaks continued to stir the surveillance debate in the UK, with Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty, insisting David Cameron or the foreign secretary, William Hague, should address MPs.
On Friday, the Guardian revealed GCHQ has put taps on some of the cables that carry internet traffic in and out of the UK, and has developed a storage system - codenamed Tempora - that can keep the information for up to 30 days.
The programme, which has not been disclosed before, allows GCHQ to keep a vast amount of emails and telephone calls for analysis.
Chakrabarti said: "The authorities appear to be kidding themselves with a very generous interpretation of the law that cannot stand with article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
"Revelations of blanket surveillance of the British public on such a scale amount to a huge scandal even by the standards of recent years. At the very least, the prime minister or foreign secretary should appear before the House of Commons immediately to explain how this was justified without clear legal authority or parliamentary debate.""
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 23, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 23, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
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So Snowden is going to Ecuador.
via Cuba.
Wouldn't it be a dramatic thing, if Cuba placed him under arrest, and returned him to the US?
The possibility of a tremendous opening of the gate to Cuba, and the resultant ending of their isolation.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 23, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
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A letter from a Phd. freind of mine below. It seems relevant to this conservation.
Hi Rick:
Yes, indeed, "hope for the best and prepare for the worst" is sage advise. Am i crazy because of my heart condition affecting not only my physical well being, but also my mind, my perception of reality, my sense of well being?Or does it seem to you that everything is falling apart from the center and core of existence? How can we be hopeful when our convictions and beliefs are constantly attacked by very evil forces;when government and corporate policies destroy us in real time, 24/7, 365 days each year? How can we prepare for that which we do not understand nor have control over? What can we do to preserve the essence of our convictions, beliefs, and values when the powers that govern our lives force us into isolation with an impending sense of helplessness, anger, joylessness, and despair?
Yes, indeed, DOOM does describe the times we are passing through. DOOM is fashionable and trendy. The perception of impending DOOM is real! My children express it. My casual acquaintances admit to uncontrollable fear, apprehension, and a generalized non-specified terror. My friends feel we are on the path of species specific annihlation. Doom is in the air. It is a dread that keeps a man in bed instead of embracing the opportunities and potential joy of the new day. It is the reason why two thirds of our countrymen are doped up on anti-depressants. It is why Hollywood is dosing us up on movies that deal with apocalyptic themes, end of the world fears, and, well zombies. Perhaps the zombie craze describes the 21st century man. He shuffles through modern times feeling this unspecified rage, ready to bite and kill those remaining souls left alive. They have no real appetite for nourishment or sustenance; just the essential raging urge to chew, chomp, munch, crunch, tear at, snap at, and in short, pass on the soul killing disease.
I agree that what causes this feeling in the general populace is difficult to understand. I think we need to discover who actually controls the levers of power; not the junk yard illusion and myth of democracy, but real power! Follow the money. Men who are not afraid to lose their lives cannot be forced to accept the unacceptable. The fearful masses may be programmed through the media to accept the daily erosion of their constitutional and legal rights in exchange for the incorrect perception of safety and well being. Perhaps modern serfdom is acceptable to these terrified hordes. Perhaps they confuse the perception of the common man's authentic welfare with the acquisition of material possesions and positive cash flow? Perhaps they fear for the day when their material shelter, retirement and savings, health care, and security are stripped away from them by their owners, those that control the real power. The government does everything it can to keep its citizens in a state of perpetual terror, as they mindlessly shuffle through the DHS requirements and rituals.
A zombie cannot communicate. It can only absorb stimuli and react with violent dependability. A zombie has attained genuine enlightenment in the information technology age,i.e., all "informative" material originates from the same source, from those that exercise true POWER.
George Bush Sr. did help to transform the USA into the USZ. He was the czar of the CIA and a good family freind of the Saudi royalty. He was the founding father of the New World Order.He was an inspirational Zionist at the same time. He knew how to exercise power. He set the path for Clinton, his son, and the current occupant of the White House. He was a genius. Bush Senior led us to the creation of international sustainable development of zombie culture. Yes, Brazil hosted the UNCED in '92 just as Pappy left office and infected the first victim with the Z plague and then gave us the means of sustainable implementation on a world wide scale. What an exemplary and shining example of the contemporary Power Broker! Look for Pelosi, Reed, and Kerry to get Agenda 21 into treaty form, and then look to Obama to figure out how to eliminate Amendment VI of our constitution, so that 21 becomes the law of the land in the USZ. The important point here is that there is no difference between the democrat and republican parties anymore. Global government is the ultimate goal (or is it ghoul) of these power brokers of A.D. 2013.
I still do my best to get prepared and retain hope; yet i fear it is about to get much much worse and that it will take at least be a 1000 years before all the Z's are forced out of existence. Western civilization as we have known it during our lives is about to get clobbered just as the Romans did 1500 years ago. I don't think science will find a vaccine in time. I hope that a handful of warrior monks can keep the fire lit for the next ten centuries of survival.
Who needs a thousand points of light anyway?
Mournfully yours, Dr. SCAR
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jun 23, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
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...this is just a government trying to prevent a serious and inevitable terrorist attack by trying to preserve trillions of conversations so if something does pop up they might be able to go back and connect the dots before they blow up our pretty little lives again...
I don't agree at all, Riley. As I wrote to you previously, I think NSA data collection has been hijacked for profit by huge defense companies. William Binney, "Technical Leader for Intelligence" for the NSA , when he retired in 2001, was very upset. This is a guy who was with the NSA for 36 years and had the equivalent rank of a general.
He complained that relatively low cost, focused systems he'd developed, were being passed over for bemoths that gather everything. Binney says if the NSA can focus on 2 depths of separation they will find terrorists. Gathering every bit of data is way more than what is needed.
The excerpt below makes a very good point that all kinds of people can be blackmailed with the level of data being collected. I'm not saying that's necessarily happening, but why would any "democracy" set themselves up like that?
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/6/10/inside_the_nsas_domestic_surveillance_apparatus_whistleblower_william_binney_speaks_out
AMY GOODMAN: And talk about that for a moment, Bill, the former Qwest CEO Joe Nacchio, the only head of a communications company to—the only head of a company to demand a court order or approval under FISA.
WILLIAM BINNEY: Yes, and the consequence for him was they targeted him, and now he’s in prison. So, I mean, they succeeded in prosecuting him. But what it told me was that the intent from the beginning was to do domestic spying, accumulating information and knowledge about the U.S.—the entire U.S. population. So I thought of that as a J. Edgar Hoover on super steroids, you know? It wasn’t that he had information and knowledge to leverage just the Congress. You have information and knowledge to leverage everyone, judges included, in the country. So, that’s why I got so concerned. I tried to work internally in the government to get people to do something about it, but that whole process failed. So what it did was it alerted them to what I was doing, and they targeted me with the FBI, and they attempted to falsely prosecute me. Fortunately, I was able to get evidence of malicious prosecution every time, so they finally backed off trying to prosecute me.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jun 23, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
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Let us know when that actually starts happening
Well, Joe, we are never gonna know. Unless someone like Snowden takes the risk and proves it to us.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 23, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
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Short sampling "This is only one of several lists."
NUMBER SCIENTISTS AGE CIRCUMSTANCE DATE
#1 Jose Trias Murdered May 19, 1994
#2 Dr. Tsunao Saitoh 46 Murdered May 7, 1996
#3-7 Microbiologists Plane crash October 4, 2001
#8 Jeffrey Paris Wall 41 Murdered? November 6, 2001
#9 Dr.Vladimir Pasechnik 64 Stroke November 21, 2001
#10-12 Dr.Yaakov Matzner, Amiramp Eldor, & Avishai Berkman 54, 59,50 Plane crash November 24, 2001
#13 Roman Kuzmin 24 Struck by a car December 2001
#14 Dr. Benito Que 52 Mugging December 6, 2001
#15 Dr. David Schwartz 57 Murdered December 10, 2001
#16 Set Van Nguyen 44 Found in airlock chamber December 14, 2001
#17 Don C. Wiley 57 Body found by river December 20,2001
#18 Ivan Glebov Bandit attack January 2002
#19 Alexi Brushlinski Killed/murdered? January 2002
#20 Victor Korshunov 56 Murdered February 9, 2002
#21 Dr. Ian Langford 40 Murdered February 11, 2002
#22-23 Tanya Holzmayer & Guyang “Mathew” Huang 46, 38 Murder then suicide February 28, 2002
#24 David Wynn-Williams 55 Struck by vehicle March 24, 2002
#25 Dr. Steven Mostow 63 Plane crash March 25, 2002
#26 Dr. Leland Rickman 47 Unknown June 24, 2003
#27 Dr. David Kelly 59 Suicide?/ Murder July 18, 2003
#28 Michael Perich 46 Car wreck October 11, 2003
#29 Robert Leslie Burghoff 45 Hit and run November 20, 2003
#30 Dr Robert E. Shope 74 Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis January 19, 2004
#31 Michael Patrick Kiley 62 Heart failure January 24, 2004
#32 Vadake Srinivasan 78 Stroke/Car wreck March 13, 2004
#33 William T. McGuire 39 Murdered May 5, 2004
#34 Dr. Eugene F. Mallove 56 Murdered May 16, 2004
#35 Antonina Presnyakova 46 Accidental/Ebola May 19, 2004
#36 Thomas gold 84 Heart disease June 23, 2004
#37 Dr. Assefa Tulu 45 Hemorrhagic stroke June 24, 2004
#38 Dr. John Mullen 67 Acute arsenic intoxication June 29, 2004
#39 Dr Paul Norman 52 Plane crash July 2, 2004
#40 Dr. John Badwey 54 Pneumonia like symptoms July 21, 2004
#41 Dr Bassem al-Mudare Murdered July 21, 2004
#42 Professor John Clark 52 Hanging August 12, 2004
#43 Mohammed Toki Hussein al-Talakani 40 Murdered September 5, 2004
#44 Matthew Allison 32 Car exploded October 13, 2004
#45 John R. La Montagne, Ph.D 61 Sudden pulmonary embolism November 2, 2004
#46 Taleb Ibrahim al-Daher Murdered December 21, 2004
#47-48 Tom Throne & Beth Williams 63, 53 Car wreck December 29, 2004
#49 Jeong H. Im 72 Murdered January 7, 2005
#50 Geetha Angara 43 Murdered/Drowned February 8, 2005
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 23, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
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Land of the slave home of the pussy.
A man puts his life in jeopardy. Risks decades of political imprisonment in order to inform the citizens of his nation about what is being done by it's government.
Yet so many brainwashed idiots are concerned that he broke an unjust law?
America has gotten what it deserves.
I am truly conservative in that I believe that generally people get what they deserve. Not always but generally true.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 23, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
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Logic
Unjust law allows certain action.. one follows the law and commits unjust actions.
Someone speaks up against unjust law. Informing folks of what is being done under it.(although only idiots hadn't already guessed it was happening)
He is then charged with breaking espionage laws.
Who is wrong? The law or the man pointing it out?
We love to critique other nations who have unjust laws. Yet we act just like the chinese who support their government when it is wrong.
America has Political prisoners and is trying to make this man one of them.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 23, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
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Espionage violation?
Who was he spying for exactly?
The American people? Terrible criminal eh?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 23, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
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What is an unjust law?
Oh for example. Placing folks in Jail for Marijuana infractions.
A law that tried to suspend the Writ of Habeus Corpus and for which that part was struck down.
A law that allows the indefinate detention without legal representaion of anyone that the government chooses by simnple stating at a high enough evel that the one detained is " An enemy Combatant"
A law that allows the government to stockpile for later use every interceptable communication by it's own citizens.
A law that says you can have only one child.
A law that says Saddam Hussain can detain you if he chooses to.
A law requireing that Jews may be rounded up and slaughtered.
A law that requires Japanese descendents to be rounded up in concentration camps and their property confiscated.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 23, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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jhedge stop being an idiot and asking dumb questions when my point is crystal clear.
Never forgotten. A place I happenned on by chance and brought me to open weeping not long ago.
Abuses continue..
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 23, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
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I honestly have no idea what the unjust law is that you think has been broken.
Doink! /Facepalm One cannot break an unjust law except by following it.
Dude he has been charged with the felony of breaking something to do with the espionage act.
You look it up if you want to know. To me it is immaterial as regards actual justice in this situation.
I'm sure it was considered a felony to be part of the resistance against the Axis in WWII also. Or to be a signature of the declaration of independence.
Whatever
Not even worthy of a trial of any sort.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 23, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
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Yes one breaks the law by following an unjust law.
The espionage law is unjust if it is being used as a way to prosecute this man who did what was right.
Simple concepts here.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jun 24, 2013 - 12:01am PT
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The espionage law is unjust if it is being used as a way to prosecute this man who did what was right.
+10
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 12:05am PT
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So he is being charged as a SPY.
What adversary was he spying for?
He was spying for the American people.
Why does the Government of the American people consider the American People the adversary?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 24, 2013 - 12:09am PT
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Why does the Government of the American people consider the American People the adversary?
Because they are the crooks!
The crooks are always suspicious.
Like minds.
Crooks don't want to get caught.
So they spy on you to see how much you know so they can't get caught in their nefarious activities.
Most all the worlds top echelon of leaders are crooks these days ......
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