Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
|
So, Feynman (and apparently Ed and his posse) believes it's ok or fine (intellectually?) to accept the claim that there are no absolutes.
Anyone got the bandwidth and cycles to follow that line of thinking to the end of the line?
Hmmmm, maybe my understanding is wrong. Maybe what you and Feynman are arguing is that there is no need to look for absolutes because you can't find them (a "scarce resources" or a bounded-rationality argument).
Er, would it not mean that everything, then, is relative? Is that what you really believe?
If so, then cool. Welcome.
The more closely you look, the less you can be sure of anything (save one thing).
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
|
want a world were there are absolutes and things that never change.
Are you stupid. You definitely are.
NIST wants an absolute for a reference and standard for measurements although the tolerances are not absolute but close as they can get to it.
Still they are trying get get as close to it as possible for reference and standard.
Thus they are seeking it.
Absolute means standard to reference against.
Not that anyone is trying to make a dynamic world static as you are trying to imply with your moronic attempt to slam some people.
And you are a voice of science? What a freakin fool.
Typical khanom talking out of his ass as usual .....
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
|
Feynman (and apparently Ed and his posse) believes it's ok or fine (intellectually?) to accept the claim that there are no absolutes.
I have a posse?
I think you may be less nuanced then Feynman (or me)... taking Werner's point, yes NIST is trying to provide absolutes, but they also put "error bars" on their standards to indicate the uncertainties inherent in the measurements they make... so, and as Feynman would agree, that uncertainty opens up the possibility that something might be lurking in those error bars...
taking the speed-of-light as an example, now a defined number by NIST. The recent speed-of-neutrino discussion has opened people up to the question of what does set the velocity of zero mass (or near zero mass) particles?
could it be that the very weak interactions of the photon and of the neutrino with the putative vacuum cause a slightly different velocity? could be... we know just how large that interaction difference would be, it has to hide in the uncertainties of our measurements of both the determination of the speed of light as well as the speed of neutrinos.
so the "absolute" speed limit of the universe might be slightly tweaked, and the nature of that tweaking might result in some very profound differences in our thinking on the universe...
when Feynman says he doesn't know how to pose a question about "absolutes" it is because he knows he cannot know something to arbitrarily precise and accurate, also that his theories are based on observations which have been tested only to the level of the accuracy and precisions of those tests...
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
|
Yes, religions make a mess of it.
Angry protesters climbed the walls of the U.S. Embassy in Cairo on Tuesday and tore down the American flag, apparently in protest of a film thought to insult the Prophet Mohammed.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/11/world/meast/egpyt-us-embassy-protests/index.html
Bears repeating: Religion makes a mess of it. Esp the Abrahamic religions in their traditional fundamentalist forms.
You have to wonder, just where are the religious moderates - why don't they get on the ball and go and tell their more conservative ilk not to take their ancient chapters and verse so literally? Where are the Muslim moderates telling the Muslim ultra-conservatives that Mohammad doesn't mind being insulted - because he's dead, because his bones long long ago turned to dust. I don't see these religious moderates anywhere. Along similar lines, Where are the Christian moderates standing up to the Pat Robertsons and Frank Grahams to prod them to get with the times, to take things (oh, like the reported divinity of a 2,000 year old Nazerene carpenter; or resurrection) less literally and more allegorically. I don't see them either.
Apparently it's all being left to the atheist to do the dirty work.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
|
Your tactics reek of deception and hypocrisies:
As "A lot of christians find this disheartening and want a world were there are absolutes and things that never change. Buncha pussies."
That wasn't towards me, but calling them a bunch of pussies show that you are the childish one.
Your moronic attempts to paint others saying and acting according to your stupid projections is defacto standard to you.
My post above was actually in agreement with Feynman on that platform.
NIST is seeking was the word.
There's always a margin of error on the material platform, and that's an absolute ......
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
|
So Werner,
I suppose it would be hard to disagree with this.
I condemn the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims -- as I condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions."
Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We Americans firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.
 Our beloved Uncle Sam.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/11/world/meast/egpyt-us-embassy-protests/index.html
Shows I think what atheists, progressives, et al are up against.
Meanwhile, billions upon billions continue to be spent on the merry-go-rounds and tit-for-tats of the modern age culture wars. (Hey, we are out of popcorn over here, lol!)
|
|
Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
|
I'm in your posse Ed.
But that's your fault for making me actually like off widths :)
As for this topic as I stated before, science trumps a fictional book.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
|
HFCS
My arguments have nothing to do with modern organized sectarian religions and their dogmatic view points.
The key word is sectarian.
Sanatana-dharma does not refer to any sectarian process of religion.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
|
Atheism gives full value to a person's life....Christianity considers life as just a necessary waypoint on the way to heaven or hell- your choice, or is it?
|
|
splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
|
"Where are the Christian moderates..."
here is your answer...
"I know your deeds that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm - neither hot nor cold - I am about to spit you out of My mouth." Rev 3:16
edit: HFCS - you tell us to beat it, yet you continually tempt us to respond with your incessantly demeaning attacks that (in your mind) are an attempt challenge & destroy our viability & purpose. i could care less. you are no more than "a puff of smoke, here today & gone tomorrow" (are not we all?). although, i do admire your persistence, your tenacity and your drive, Corn Spirit. but, your impudence tends to over rule everything else. it's really a shame...puff (ramble) on!
|
|
splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
|
DMT - it's "deeds" not "seeds"! and to which "creepy reverend" do you refer?
crickets...
edit: Wudevah!
i already have stated my stance elsewhere on this forum. but, for prosperity's sake, I'll repeat that a certain faction of the "church" has hijacked the political system and in the process alienated a good portion of our population. imo, politics won't change a thing. it may change laws (for better or worse) but it won't change hearts. i already pointed out to Big Jim D on the other (Christian thread) how the "church" has a call and it ain't political, see 2 Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and pray and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and forgive their sins and heal their land." He is talking to Christians, many have lost focus, jumped on band wagons and yes, have fallen into "wicked ways"! i won't elaborate, but i suspect ya all know the temptations that are out there. imo, the "Church" needs to refocus and get on our knees and pray. i, personally, don't really give a damn what you think of me or what you spew, so i will leave it at that
DMT - i do take a stand for the under dog (cuz i am very familiar with that ground) do you recall how i defended t*r on another thread? i stood her ground against another Christian, btw! just sayin!
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
|
re: the reality of death vs the denial of death
It is interesting to note that... from either the Abrahamic muslim perspective or the Abrahamic christian perspective, atheism appears as a "death cult" - inasmuch as it is the only participant in this dog fight for whom death is real.
Atheism - a death cult - that's some funny sh!t!
.....
It's a tightrope for sure. (a) How do you reject Grandma's beliefs without "hurting her religious feelings." (b) How do you reject Islam and its beliefs without coming across rude? or as some traditional fundamentalist Christians now like to say, without coming across as "haters".
But proceed we must. At least till the day when an atheist or non-theist or non-supernaturalist has at least a reasonable chance of bringing his science education or science literacy to high political office (dare I think it - the Office of the President) in these United States.
Keep the charge!
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
|
DMT, I'm in YOUR posse!!! That was so rank!!!
And good old silent Marlow, who puts it so eloquently with no words!!!
Viewing the HD vids of the Sun, it spooks me to think that Sun-worshippers may be the closest of all seekers to truth.
When viewing the massive destruction the Sun wreaks on itself every second of every day, though it's never a day or night as far as the sun is concerned, it's apparent that it can't control itself. Would this be sensible to say? It must be that physical laws alone do so. Or is it control? (I have to leave that question there. I can't possibly answer that. Others will, eventually. I'm not certain of that. It could happen. Any statement we make about the future is speculative.)
If so, take the reaction I had of "Man-oh-man, I'm scared of that heat and power, I have no business near it, run away." It's the animal in me, the fight-or-flight syndrome, and it's ABSOLUTELY the same reaction a roach has when the lights go on.
If what ever is "controlling" that mass of heat and power is actually in control, cool. In the face of such overwhelming power, indicating control over ALL similar masses, and we may as well throw in the black holes, anti-matter and (any suggestions?) into the mix, then it seems that we need to respect physics a lot more than speculation.
We are essentially on the same wavelength, if you'll pardon the usage, as our Earth-occupying co-habitants, the roach, the rhino, the bison tic, the fly, the worm, and the mice in all the other places besides Merced.
Evolution is a fact and underpins a lot of science.
How might a moderate Christian feel about that? Or a moderate Muslim. Or a Ghud Buddhist? I can imagine the fundamentalists in each of the first two religions reacting viciously and calling for Allah or God to send me to the bad place. A Buddhist, likely, would ignore me. Don't know any of 'em, so I can't say. They are just a obsessed with desire as Westerners in some sects of Buddhism, like the Nichiren Shoshu, whom I have experienced.
But the key to my idea is that we are here, controlled by the Sun's energy, and it in turn is controlled by the physical laws of the universe, which work however they work, and it seems like it's running about like the Creator left it. He's off climbing, I heard. :)
Again, thanks to Marlow.
A proton walks into the bar. The batender, a cute little meson, says, "What'll it be, Big Boy?"
"Ill take a scotch, beer back. How much will that be, Sweetheart. I'm a little short of cash today."
"For you, Big Boy, there's no charge."
This is the first joke told at the Creation. It's pretty old, anyway. In fact, I just bet the Creation was no more than a Facelift on a cosmic scale.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
|
Be fruitful and multiply, sayeth the Lord This an interesting Biblical quotation in the context of evolution. This is really the driver of Evolution (deliberately capitalized) when random genetic mutation is taken into account.
Darwin got it mostly right in spite of knowing nothing of genetics. He figured it out by extensive careful study of the natural world and a lot of clever thinking. Mendel had actually worked out the basis of Genetics yet his work wasn't understood and accepted until the 20th century. Then suddenly Darwin's natural selection could be explained.
I'll be the first to admit there's a great deal we don't yet know about the creation of the universe (or universes) as currently understood by physicists. This doesn't frighten me at all. This doesn't even tempt me to revert to magic and 3000 year old mythology to explain how we got here. Science is demonstrable, and testable, repeatedly. Part of the beauty of science as we know it so far is that behind every explanation there remains a web of new questions. Possibly the best layman's concept of infinity: answers only beget more questions.
I'm not even bothered by the notion that genes, the ability to reproduce and therefore life, came about by random chance. Or the possibility that our universe is only one of a large number of universes where our model of physics doesn't even apply.
Unlike religions, science doesn't shrink from questions, from scrutiny, from new ways of thinking, it thrives on it. Skepticism and Curiosity are to science as Multiply and Mutate are to Evolution. Perhaps we WILL find that the speed of light isn't an absolute limit. No Big Deal, in fact, that would open thousands of new questions to be answered.
Edited to remove my sarcastic comments. Yesterday and today's events in Cairo and Libya remind us all that regardless of our beliefs/non-beliefs we are each free to make that choice. We are also free to question others' belief systems. Little or nothing is gained by being rude.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
|
Within reason, dude...
|
|
splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
|
Dr.F - You live in fear, and repression controls your emotions and actions.
Wrong!
You don't have a clue!
I have no fear, I fear nothing. I certainly do not fear death!
"Fear not, for I am with you, be not dismayed; for I am your God..."
"Thou you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you shall fear no evil."
Believe me when I say I have walked through the valley of death!!
Dr.F - ...is used against you in the final judgment of your soul.Quote Here
There is no fear of a final judgment. We are washed in the blood of Christ, sealed for eternity, our salvation is secure. We are called to reach out to the lost. That is our calling. I have been in that Holy place of the Lord. I know how He grieves for the lost. His love for you is DEEP. It is His number one priority and for us as well. It is often hard for Christians to stay on track. For instance, here, all the rejection, bitter and insolent unbelief. I doubt the Lord would dwindle long. So I will go...! But we do care, sometimes that gets lost when we become defensive, I am guilty of that.
Peace!
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
|
then why do people say proudly that they are "god fearing"?
why are they so obviously afraid of god?
|
|
Andree Hussar
Social climber
ny
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
|
ok for all you atheists...Why is there something at all !? ( earth, people , universe...)
If the universe is eternal then why is it expanding and dying? There is a time element .
How can something come from nothing and how is this scientific and logical?
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
|
Ask away, you'll never ever get the right answer to that one.
I shouldn't have answered that.
You were not addressing me, the simple skeptic.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
|
Andree, with all due respect, wouldn't you be more comfortable on the Christian thread? perhaps even in lieu of this rock climbing site a knitting site or a Wheel of Fortune site.
.....
Playing along though... while waiting for images of Emma Watson to download...
Your question seems to suggest because we moderns don't know all the answers to all the mysteries we can think of, it only makes sense to turn to - otherwise default to - the God of Moses and Christianity or Islam.
Well let me just say, God Jesus and His Father, the warrior God of the Mesopotamian Bronze Age, don't even make my long list of ancient local deities I would turn to - if for some imaginary reason I had to get religious tomorrow, say. Apollo and Artemis, for instance, or Serapis, would get my attention way before these dudes, just sayin.
.....
Pop Quiz / Theology
You do know your God's name in Arabic is Allah. Right?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!