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Degaine
climber
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Ron,
You're definitely not ball cupping...you're giving him a reach around (not that there's anything wrong with that).
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
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I'm certain a balsy but strong kid in his 2nd year could make a "sh#t-show" send of your list (I have names..
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I'll challenge you on that statement. There might be a handful of people who have done that list with only two years experience - I pretty much did - but making a "shit show" means that they found that list of climbs trivial and even laughable - and I wager that you can find no such person who would claim as much.
I contend that your claim that the metioric rise in sport climbing standards has produced a climbing athlete that can eat alive all preceding climbs, world wide, in any discipline, from thin cracks to run out faces to horrific off widths, by virtue of their prowess developed on clip and go face routes, is a total and complete fiction backed by no real world evidence.
As mentioned, it is strictly mythological that sport climbing prowess translates to immediate mastery of the trad milieu, to where the longstanding testpieces become "laughable."
JL
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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A late friend was traveling in Europe a long time ago, and was fortunate enough to bump into a couple guys who were friendly, easy-going, and willing to show him some climbs. He quickly realized they were much better than he was, but nevertheless they were happy to take him up really high quality climbs in the 5.7 and 5.8 range. When he departed, he had made two new friends, and so a year or so later, when they first visited Colorado, Bob was happy to reciprocate, putting them up as they made their first climbing tour of the States.
Bob soon realized that not only were they climbing well - these two were rapidly knocking off one Eldorado testpiece after another, a style that they replicated all the way to Yosemite.
Wolfgang Gullich and Kurt Albert went on to legendary fame and status, while Bob eventually quit, save the occasional Flagstaff bouldering jaunt.
Now, imagine the flipside - some gumby Euro guy wanders naively into Yosemite, where he is taken under the guidance of Bachar, Kauk, Bridwell, who obligingly show him classic Valley moderates.
NOT.
Face it, all the neuroses revealed within a large portion of posts in this thread display how puerile, narcissistic, insecure, and self-absorbed American climbers (at least aging Valley climbers) still appear. To paraphrase John Salathe, "Why can't we all just climb?"
* My chosen style of climbing is better than yours (and so I am therefore superior to you morally, intellectually, spiritually, if not financially), so eat sh#t and die, MoFo* appears to be the common theme here.
My friend's story is 100% true as close as I can remember - can you imagine if you got to go climbing with Robbins, Frost, et al in their heyday, with no clue who they were, what their reputations were, and without them ever bothering to announce it all to you? Why are so many American climbers, at least posers posting here, so many self-absorbed jerks?
Donini might remember another story from the Tetons - I only heard from others, so the details might be off, but in the late 70's when a lot of strong rock climbers were guiding there, some farmer came out on vacation and signed up to climb the Grand. He did well and had so much fun he took advanced rock as well, easily following Guide's Wall, then I think the Snaz, which was 5.10 - except he was climbing in Hush Puppies! The climbers took him up harder climbs, and eventually got him to buy some E.B.s. Then, Charlie Fowler wanted to do like the second free ascent of the South Buttress (rt) on Mt. Moran, the hardest free route in the Park at that time. This guy was his client, after only 2-3 weeks of climbing. They hiked in to the base, where they discovered he'd forgotten his E.B.s, so while Charlie led, this guy followed the route, free I believe, in his Hush Puppies! They apparently took him to Little Cottonwood Canyon or someplace where they finally found a route he couldn't do - but none of them could either. Then, he thanked everybody for a swell time, waved goodbye, and vanished forever from the climbing scene. I'd love to read any firsthand accounts recalling this tale.
Last, when Kevin Donald ran his school in Eldorado, he had at least one client/beginner follow the Naked Edge at the end of a week, perhaps because unlike other schools, Kevin never let on that just because you were a beginner, you shouldn't be able to climb some particular route that was supposed to be reserved for the few elites.
Consequently, talented novices advanced without preconceived notions of what "difficult" was supposed to be. Note, these exceptional few were never leading, only following, so the "game" was a lot simpler and safer.
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raymond phule
climber
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They tell me that climbing is roughly 20 times as popular as it was in 1975. Let's say that back then there were 500 people who could lead 5.11 trad in all disciplines, from English Grit to Yosemite off width to Black Canyon mixed, to run out Tahquitz face. That would mean that today, given that the 5.11 all around trad leader is common as some insist, that it's no big deal, there would have to be at least 20,000 climbers who could with the greatest of ease dick all the routes on my original list and call them "laughable." The amount of 10,000 would simply represent the same percentage as there were in 1975. 20,000 is only a two fold increase in percentage.
I'll bet you that if we got everyone on Supertopo to list all the people they knew who have lead 5.11 trad in all disciplines - thin to wide, face to chimneys - we might muster a list of 3,000 or maybe 4,000 folks - hardly ubiquitous in a sport in which several million practice regularly.
When I read the OP I didn't think that the numbers of 5.11 overall climbers that the quote talked about where on the order of 500 1975. So Astroman where a big deal even though 500 climbers in the world could onsight all types of trad routes at that level?
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Degaine
climber
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Hi Largo,
I hope I'm not nitpicking, but I think there's a difference between "trad" and "crack" climbing, if your use of the word trad is "trad vs sport" as in placing gear versus clipping bolts.
Don't mistake me for the 5.11 climber we're discussing, I'm not, but I've climbed quite a few face climbs that took only gear (belays bolted or pitons), on both limestone and granite.
JLP's clearly trolling, but I don't think the transition to gear placement from sport is necessarily that hard depending on the situation.
I do agree with you, however, that someone with only 2 years of experience face climbing, will need time to transition to successfully climbing cracks, especially off-width.
Cheers.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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making a "shit show" means that they found that list of climbs trivial and even laughable No - "shit show send", to most today, I think, means: desperate, gear falling out, lunging, slipping, inefficient, scary to watch, etc. They still get the tick all the same.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Uh...just said my piece on the Slab Climb thread.
But, and so why is it, that every time I go over to Middle Cathedral North Apron, my partner and I are the only ones there? Maybe one other party, on a busy day?
Lot's of 5.9 and 5.10- all over the place. And all you need rack is less then a half dozen pieces.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Question to JL:
Person climbs 5.11:
crack fingers hands like a superstar
Offwidths good enough
Tuolumne slab just fine
Same person shows up at a French sport crag, what should he expect to be leading by the end of a week?
Vice a versa too.
EDIT:
I ask JL because I think he has, or has seen this path before
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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making a "shit show" means that they found that list of climbs trivial and even laughable
No - "shit show send", to most today, I think, means: desperate, gear falling out, lunging, slipping, inefficient, scary to watch, etc. They still get the tick all the same
I suppose it's possible that people use expressions differently, but I hear (and say) "shit show" all the time in the context JLP uses it, never in JL's. Just sayin, in case it works its way into a glossary in a new book or article.
A minor gloss: "shit show" doesn't mean that the climber was successful, although it doesn't preclude it either--just means that thing were generally f*#ked up.
Here's the first def from urban dictionary, the others are generally the same (clearly this isn't climbers only slang):
1. sh#t show 872 up, 255 down
A description of an event or situation which is characterized by an ridiculously inordinate amount of frenetic activity. Disorganization and chaos to an absurd degree. Often associated with extreme ineptitude/incompetence and or sudden and unexpected failure.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Steve. I have not been to cannon Much in the last few years but literaly every time I have been there has been a party on Direct Direct. last year the day isa and I did moby there were 2 partys on the Direct Direct. 3 years ago I went up there with my CO partner Alex Spencer. He wanted VMC but there was a party on it haveing a bit of troubble getting through a seeping section so we went over to Duet Direct which was drier but waited to get on that and another party was behind us. This July Alex was back east and wanted to have annother go at VMC so we hiked up there and there was a party on it. Maybe I simply attract climbers who are way better than myself? Hey lets make that tradman guy feel like a wanker today;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Yea, we have all watched a sh#t show where we were just waiting to have to scrape the kid off the talus and somehow they flail their way to the top and live...
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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I went and did routes that my heros were putting up (the ones i actually HAD the sack to do) and it was because of their being able to do it directly helped me summon sackage to do them.
Ron, that's why some of my climbing friends became lifetime friends, because they inspired me and pushed me to my limits. One good friend who I wont name routinely lied to me about route ratings because he thought I could climb harder than I was. Then there are the people you read about in magazines. Even now, if I read about some sketchy adventure, I'm left in awe sometimes, of what other people are able to do. Im sure you all know the video, Yosemite Ground Up Perspectives - it ends saying that Yosemite is a place where heros come from and where you go because you have heros. And once all the heros are gone ..... its going to be like FRANCE.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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No disrespect meant to anyone, but I never looked at or considered any climber as a "hero". Not even in the broadest sense of the word. Climbing heroic? Not in itself, perhaps their have been displays of heroism within the sport, as there can be anywhere in life. But the act of climbing, no matter how bold, doesn't constitute heroism (nor hero worship), imo!
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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No disrespect meant to anyone, but I never looked at or considered any climber as a "hero". Not even in the broadest sense of the word. Climbing heroic?
Then you must not know what "hero" means, or maybe you don't know anything about climbing.
Top level climbers are obviously "heroes" "in the broadest sense of the word."
If you can't find a couple definitions of "hero" that describes top-level, traditional climbers and mountaineers . . . sheesh.
a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
b : an illustrious warrior
c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities
d : one who shows great courage
2
a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work
b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3
plural usually he·ros : submarine 2
4
: an object of extreme admiration and devotion : idol
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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I don't think the transition to gear placement from sport is necessarily that hard depending on the situation.
The reason I have contested this statement is that as an author of how-to climbing books, I get massive feedback from people as to what I am saying in those books. Quite naturally I've muffed a lot of thee subtleties in explaining things, or trying to, but it's tricky because the whole sport is a moving target.
But one thing that has been driven home over and over is that we are doing the clip and go climber a grave disservice by telling him that because he has developed Hereculean finger strength he has only to focus some little attention on trad climbing and he'll be a regular Tommy Caldwell in no time.
For starters, not even a third of the sport climbing population has the mindset or risk management skills to even be interested in trad. But the real damage here, and the danger is significant, is in conning the sport climber that he or she SHOULD be able to just crush trad climbing so long asthe interest is there. If they can, it will have little to do with their sport climbing background, but rather because they have a natural aptitude as an adventure athlete. And the fact is, the ratio of natural born adventure athletes has not changed that much because human nature has not changed. Sure, the modern sport climber is a regular human fly, but we can't cut the legs off these people by telling them that by all means they should be leading 5.12 cracks out at Josh by their 3rd weekend of trad climbing.
The feedback I've gotten from a lot of people is that I've insinuated that the transition into trad is "not necessarily hard," and is somehow vastly lessened by dint of their gym time. In fact, the people who take readily to trad would have anyhow - and they are not the majority by any means. This has nothing at all to do with back in the day old farts or any of that. It has to do with the simple fact that not everyone has the mentality to handle, or to want to even engage, vertical adventures. The much more gentile sport climbing, short, hard and elegant, seems sexy and hip, whereas running the line off RPs 1,000 feet above the floor or the Black Canyon and bivouacing in ditches and drinking your own urine and hauling a 100 lb pig - not so much.
JL
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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but we can't cut the legs off these people by telling them that by all means they should be leading 5.12 cracks out at Josh by their 3rd weekend of trad climbing.
First week trad climbing:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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AE I love watching Wolfgang and Kurt climb! Cool story.
When I began climbing with my wife late 90's early 2000's we ran into a girl about 16 years old in Jtree who climbed with us. She was much better than we were as we were inexperienced. She was proud to say that she had bad parents got involved with the wrong crowd way young but had learned to climb from Ron Kauk and she considered him her dad(whether he knew that or not I dont know). Only knew her one day and never bothered to check out her story (how could I).
Point being I am sure the stonemasters and Yos climbers have a preconcieved reputation but I bet you they took people under thier ample wings many times that we have never heard about. Read the tribute threads to Bachar for example...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I guess I just don't get it. I am always baffeled by the folks who lead several grades harder on bolts than gear. I see people take 20 min and longer to set belay @ 2 bolt anchor because all they know how to do is lower. It just does not compute in my brain. Climbing is just climbing and it shouldn't be that hard to figuer out how to put a little springy thing or a wedge in the rock that will hold a decent fall. Maybe that is because I started in an era when there was no sport climbing in the north east? most of the people who have a hard time with trad simply do not practice trad. they have a shiny rack that stays shiny when they go clip bolts or top rope. If they actually used the stuff every time they went climbing the learning curve is pretty quick..
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Largo - your post garbles together noobs, strong sport climbers, danger and sticking gear into a rock. I can't make anything of it other than you seem to be talking about noobs and noob problems in a thread about hard trad. Yes, I agree, trad climbing is dangerous for noobs.
Love ECIYA's video though. Strength and movement skills are king. Look at that guy's footwork and ability to lock off and get gear in. It's amazing. Where did he learn that? He learned it from stopping to clip bolts.
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