Florida stand Your ground law?

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graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 3, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
An elderly black woman who carries a firearm with her for self protection. A white thug attacks her, and instead of hobbling off to the old folks home, she draws her gun and fires, killing the thug.

She wouldn't need the "stand your ground" law to defend herself. She's still have a good self-defense claim.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
Tolman, in theory I have no problem at all with a stand your ground law if it is written in such a way that it is not a free license to blast anyone who gets your pantys in a bunch. As stated previously I can not run 2,495fps (wolf 122gr hp out of a chinese SKS) heck I can not even run 850fps=.45ACP. The problem with the FLA law is that it was written with some major loopholes and case precident has shown that it is very easy to get away with murder with this law.

There is absoultly NO REQUIREMENT TO PROVE THAT DEADLY FORCE WAS DIRECTED AT THE SHOOTER. All the shooter needs to do is state that THEY WERE AFRAID FOR THEIR LIFE and they can shoot any damn person they want for free. How would you feel if somone killed your child and then claimed they wrere afraid and they walked?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 3, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
have made the job of the police to properly investigate the case, as well as the DA to prosecute it impartially extremely difficult

Uh bro? Maybe you missed the part where the Popo and DA didn't investigate sh#t and considered it a closed case before the media storm started?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
Elcap. Not sure if that is one of my quotes or not though I do know that I have brought up that point several times. I was refering to case precident affecting prosecution on many levels. there is enough case precident for shooters walking that the prosecuters seem to give up pretty darn easy and both prosecutors and police cite case precident as their excuse for letting zimmerman go free.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Was quoting Tolman there Tradman, should have used the full sentence to avoid confusion, my bad.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
There is absoultly NO REQUIREMENT TO PROVE THAT DEADLY FORCE WAS DIRECTED AT THE SHOOTER. All the shooter needs to do is state that THEY WERE AFRAID FOR THEIR LIFE and they can shoot any damn person they want for free. How would you feel if somone killed your child and then claimed they wrere afraid and they walked?

Yo, that's not at all what the law says. It's been posted on this thread, and, in relevant part, it requires that the person claiming self defense "reasonably believes [the use of force including deadly force] is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

John E, who I'm sure is a nice guy and knowledgeable about lots of things, posted that it was his "understanding" that the law has been interpreted to be subjective.
I called him out on that, and challenged him to provide any support for his "understanding." That's the last we've heard from him on this thread.

So I'll repeat the challenge: anyone who wants to say that the Florida's SYG law allows you to use deadly force just because you, subjectively, are afraid of something, please explain your reasoning. If your reasoning is something like "that's what John E said" or "that's what CNN said some Florida chief of police said", that's fine, but let me assure you that's nothing close to an argument that would even be admissible in any court in the country, and is really infantile from a lawyer's perspective.



zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
Sanford Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival, told the Miami Herald that she met Zimmerman in September, 2011 at a community neighborhood watch presentation. Dorival stated that she gave a warning with respect to vigilante behavior at that meeting: “I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out,’ ” Dorival said. “‘Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about not being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.”

The dispatcher recommended that he not take any action, and informed him that police were on the way. Zimmerman reported that Martin had started running. The dispatcher asked him if he was following Martin and he affirmed that he was. The dispatcher informed him that this was not necessary, saying, "We don't need you to do that."[69] Zimmerman affirmed "OK" and said he would meet the police by the mailboxes. However, before hanging up he changed his mind and said “Actually, could you have him call me, and I’ll tell him where I’m at?”[70]

2:07 minutes into the police call Zimmerman says "he's running". 2:37 into the call Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "he ran". After he can't tell the dispatcher the address of his current location, the dispatcher asks Zimmerman for his apartment number. Zimmerman tells him the numbers of his street address and then at 3:35 adds "Oh crap, I don't want to give it all out. I don't know where this kid is". Zimmerman appears to hang up at the 4:05 mark, almost two minutes after the comment that Martin was running. The recording ends at 4:11

69.^ Clint Van Zandt, 911 calls released in deadly Florida shooting, MSNBC, Retrieved 2012-03-21.

70.^ Robles, Frances. "What is known, what isn’t about Trayvon Martin’s death - Trayvon Martin". MiamiHerald.com. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/2725442_p2/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
anyone who wants to say that the Florida's SYG law allows you to use deadly force just because you, subjectively, are afraid of something, please explain your reasoning.

You already answered it. All beliefs are subjective.

"reasonably believes [the use of force including deadly force] is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:50pm PT

You already answered it. All beliefs are subjective.

Perhaps, but they're not all reasonable, which is what the law requires.
In other words, if you have a subjective, but unreasonable belief that force is required, you get no help from the SYG law. That reasonableness requirement is what imparts objectivity into the SYG law.

Thanks for at least paying attention.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
Why was z-man carrying a gun? Most of us have gone to the store thousands of times and never needed to pack.

From what's been said so far, Martin committed no crime, yet in violation of the established (stated, re-iterated, sanctioned police) procedures, Martin was stalked by z-man. Clearly Martin had reason to fear for his life and would have been protected had he shot z-man with his ice tea. Martin's only bad in this was not to be carrying.

Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
blahblah, google the law. You'll find plenty of instances supporting JohnE's take on this.
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
@blah

Perhaps, but they're not all reasonable, which is what the law requires.

I'm sure if you ask z-man he'll say his were reasonable.

The law does not afford the authority to the police to determine reasonability. Therefore, z-man should have been arrested and the court system would be able to take a shot at deciding whether his actions were reasonable.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
As part of the jury instructions, the judge carefully explained the California laws that applied to self defense. I remember that the law was very generous toward the person defending themselves. For example it was OK to use disproportionate force and the person only needed to perceive a threat. The CA law and FL law have a lot in common

-which is why the Hell's Angel who stabbed Meridth Hunter to death at Altomont was acquitted.

Drawing a gun is no small threat...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
blahblah, google the law. You'll find plenty of instances supporting JohnE's take on this.

Gary, I don't need plenty, I need one from a Florida appellate court.
Got one? If not, while you of course are free to post whatever you want, as is John E, me, and the man on the moon, I'll just respectfully note that John E made an extraordinary claim regarding the Florida statute, which apparently you believe as well, but neither you nor John E have provided a shred of evidence to support your claim.

I'm sure I can use google to find support for cold fusion, perpetual motion machines, etc.
But I'm not the one making a claim here.
Either you got the proof or you don't.
Gene

climber
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
but let me assure you that's nothing close to an argument that would even be admissible in any court in the country, and is really infantile from a lawyer's perspective.

I think that all most folks want is that this event be placed before a jury in court so that the facts can be determined and a verdict made.

The problem, as I see it, is that the SYG legislation in many cases precludes a public airing of the event in a court of law. That's not good. Exoneration of a shooter based on his/her take of the situation should not stand without scrutiny.

g


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
The term "reasonable" is frequently used in statutes and judicial opinions. It almost never, if ever, means subjective reasonable belief. That would be nuts even by NRA standards

For better or worse, lots of states have these laws, including a similar statute in California.

zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
{The Myth of the Reasonable Man :: The Case of Fardell v. Potts: A. P. Herbert}
It is impossible to travel anywhere or to travel for long in that confusing forest of learned judgments which constitutes the Common Law of England without encountering the Reasonable Man. He is at every turn, an ever-present help in time of trouble, and his apparitions mark the road to equity and right. There has never been a problem, however difficult, which His Majesty’s judges have not in the end been able to resolve by asking themselves the simple question, ‘Was this or was it not the conduct of a reasonable man?’ and leaving that question to be answered by the jury.

I have called him a myth; and, in so far as there are few, if any, of his mind and temperament to be found in the ranks of living men, the title is well chosen. But it is a myth which rests upon solid and even, it may be, upon permanent foundations. The Reasonable Man is fed and kept alive by the most valued andenduring of our juridical institutions-the common jury.

Hateful as he must necessarily be to any ordinary citizen who privately considers him, it is a curious paradox that where two or three are gathered together in one place they will with one accord pretend an admiration for him; and, when they are gathered together in the formidable surroundings of a British jury, they are easily persuaded that they themselves are, each and generally, reasonable men.

Without stopping to consider how strange a chance it must have been that has picked fortuitously from a whole people no fewer than twelve examples of a species so rare, they immediately invest themselves with the attributes of the Reasonable Man, and are therefore at one with the Courts in their anxiety to support the tradition that such a being in fact exists Thus it is that while the Economic Man has under the stress of modern conditions almost wholly disappeared from view his Reasonable cousin has gained in power with every case in which he has figured.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
I am certainly not a lawer and not going to be able to tell you exactly what part of the law gets these people free. I did however read several storys on yahoo news that quoted Florida prosecuters and law enforcement personel saying how terrible the law is and that it makes it extreemly dificult to convict murders who use this defence. Also read from several sorces a stat where justifiable homicide more that trippled anually since the law was enacted. Does that mean there are more shootings or are there just more people succesfully useing this defense?

When I took my bodyguard classes and got my armed guard licence there was no debate period about shooting unarmed people. The instructors (state police)stressed over and over that the threat must be real, not precieved. The threat must also be in the present. Threats in the past even if that past is only 5 seconds ago do not count. Guy thretens you with a gun then lowers that gun and you shoot him while he was no longer threatening you and you go to jail.. the threat had to be iminent and real. I feel that the culprit in the FL law is probobly the word PRECIEVED. That word allows the threat to be not real but imaginary depending on your preception. The guy who shot his neighbor in FL over garbage bags shot him 10 ft from his front door. Unarmerd guy in a routine argument about how many garbage bags you are allowed on your lawn the armed neighbor blasts him with a 9mm and walks. No way in hell that flys in any northern state. Heard on the radio today that the highest rates of STD's teen pregnancys and crime are all in the southern/ Red states... Go figure............
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 3, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
tradmanclimbs said:
. The instructors (state police)stressed over and over that the threat must be real, not precieved. The threat must also be in the present. Threats in the past even if that past is only 5 seconds ago do not count. Guy thretens you with a gun then lowers that gun and you shoot him while he was no longer threatening you and you go to jail.. the threat had to be iminent and real.

this is exactly what I was taught in my State Concealed Carry Class, thank you

so, would not this also be the legal "intent" behind Florida's law to prosecute or not?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
ontheedge. FL law uses reasonable and precieved in the same sentance. Probobly that is where the problem lies as well as the FL courts interpretation of the statue.
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