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Starman
Trad climber
Sterling, MA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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Werner said:
I'd like to see what happens when the stress tests are done in a cold chamber in freezing temperatures.
Everything always changes radically in the extremes.
In Peter Metcalf's, letter, about a page ago, he said:
Based upon our decades of daily engineering, designing and manufacturing of crampons, studying returns, analyzing our competitors crampons, performing side-by-side testing at room temperatures and in our commercial freezer, we ABSOLUTELY believe that our stainless steel Sabretooths crampons are the best crampons in their class.
Y'all might have missed it... Take care, bro
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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I think its time for you buy a new crampon that you trust.
Easy there. I have crampons I trust. I also have BD crampons I bought. Like anyone else I get to ask questions.
a .05% failure rate is 5 in 10,000 crampons or to be more acurate for the end user that is more likely 5 failures in 5000 pairs. 1 in a 1000 odds of breaking one in your pair of ss saber crampons by BD's numbers? Is that correct?
20 (mostly pairs) of publically documented crampon failures. The real numbers @ BD would eliminate any wild speculation.
Because "by the numbers" I would start calling it 40 broken crampons. Now all of a sudden the numbers get much bigger across the board.
It is simple. How many pairs have been manufactured? How many pairs are known world wide to have failed? That very "raw" number would not be favorable to BD. But it would be realistic for us as consumers to make a decision from.
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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Equipment is designed and built by people who are flawed to begin with. Human Nature is flawed at the DNA level, yet when we build something from a crampon to a house to a car and even in medicine we EXPECT perfection. 100% no failure, no flaws.
You bought a pair of crampons that broke, you know others who have had some break?? So there is a flaw: You want BD to replace or refund them? design a new pair that is 100% break proof?
Sh#t happens. Fix it, move on and continue to climb.
maybe next year their crampons will be called "Flawless"
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
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I have read both the BDEL Blog about the Sabretooths and Peter Metcalf's response. Both are wonderful reads but like a circus act they are all smoke and mirrors.
BD added 38% more material to the front of the horizontal point crampons, Serac, Sabretooth, Contact. If they weren't breaking why add the material?
BD claims that Stainless is lighter in their marketing but their lab says it's the same weight. Just a singular example of the double-speak.
Why is it that if there wasn't a problem with the crampon BD would take back all of the SS Sabretooth, Serac and Contact from REI in exchange for the new model with more material?
Why are these new models showing the same type of breakage?
In the blog post they mention a British Mountaineering report of crampons breaking but they don't mention if that was straps, toe-bails, heel levers. My guess is that report does not document catastrophic failure of front points.
Peter claims that BD has a great reputation of recalling gear. Yet, when compared to Petzl, Grivel, DMM, etc it seems that they are at the back of the pack.
If crampons break typically in the same manner how come there aren't 20+ reports of front points failing on crampons from other manufacturers of similar design?
While Peter says that going to a funeral once a year for a fellow fallen climber that does not mean he is putting the climbing community first.
The make up of the BDE board and the largest shareholder in the company leave me questioning very much as to whether or not BDE cares for the community. While past performance is not an indicator of future results it is all we have to go on. Mr. Kanders is not one that I would trust with my life. And, now that BD still hasn't addressed the issue beyond some smoke and mirrors Peter Metcalf isn't one to trust either.
I will continue to vote against the board and I will encourage climbers to buy stock in BDE and vote as well.
Some transparency, honest answers and a lot less propaganda is what the situation demands.
BD's cheerleaders aren't going to change the fact that there is a major failure in a critical piece of safety equipment even if they get paid to climb on BD.
edited for spelling.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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Aforslund,
My responses to your comments are in (I) below. They are just my thoughts based on reading the thread and associated reading.
Erik
I have read both the BDEL Blog about the Sabretooths and Peter Metcalf's response. Both are wonderful reads but like a circus act they are all smoke and mirrors. (Starting off by telling us it's all lies is not the best way to get us to believe your following points. I'm sure many people stopped reading here)
BD added 38% more material to the front of the horizontal point crampons, Serac, Sabretooth, Contact. If they weren't breaking why add the material?
(It's called improving the product based on what they were finding from field testing, very common phenomenon.)
BD claims that Stainless is lighter in their marketing but their lab says it's the same weight. Just a singular example of the double-speak.(Key word "marketing", believe the qc lab)
Why is it that if there wasn't a problem with the crampon BD would take back all of the SS Sabretooth, Serac and Contact from REI in exchange for the new model with more material? (I don't quite understand your point, key point for me is that if there is a problem they take them back.)
Why are these new models showing the same type of breakage? (Boot types?)
In the blog post they mention a British Mountaineering report of crampons breaking but they don't mention if that was straps, toe-bails, heel levers. My guess is that report does not document catastrophic failure of front points. (I think you are correct in thinking this.)
Peter claims that BD has a great reputation of recalling gear. Yet, when compared to Petzl, Grivel, DMM, etc it seems that they are at the back of the pack. (Can you support this with documentation, numbers, and first hand accounts please? Are you asking the same pointed questions of other crampon manufacturers?)
If crampons break typically in the same manner how come there aren't 20+ reports of front points failing on crampons from other manufacturers of similar design? (Sounds to me like some of these reports are starting to come in, Will Gadd post above. How about asking Will? He is open to questions. Again, are you asking the same pointed questions of other crampon manufacturers?)
While Peter says that going to a funeral once a year for a fellow fallen climber that does not mean he is putting the climbing community first. (not worth responding to this)
The make up of the BDE board and the largest shareholder in the company leave me questioning very much as to whether or not BDE cares for the community. While past performance is not an indicator of future results it is all we have to go on. Mr. Kanders is not one that I would trust with my life. And, now that BD still hasn't addressed the issue beyond some smoke and mirrors Peter Metcalf isn't one to trust either. (Peter has addressed it but you are blind to the answer.)
I will continue to vote against the board and I will encourage climbers to buy stock in BDE and vote as well. (If you truly believe BD has these problems I suggest you don't encourage your friends to spend hard earned cash on a company you are bashing. Your friends will be mad they lost money....)
Some transparency, honest answers and a lot less propaganda is what the situation demands. (If you don't call the response on the BD website and Peter M's post here "some transparency" there does not seem to be any hope of you coming around.)
BD's cheerleaders aren't going to change the fact that there is a major failure in a critical piece of safety equipment even if they get paid to climb on BD. (I believe if you check the gear regularly and use properly you will notice you have a problem long before it becomes a critical problem.)
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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Coz,
Thank you for some details. What are the model names of harnesses that you are concerned about having a problem? Is it all of them? Is it ones that are currently in production or types not made anymore?
I believe I can visualize what you are talking about but it would help if you gave a bit more information on the specific harness(es?)
Thanks again.
Erik
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 17, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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Stop with the leg humping, if you have a beef about teasing you about your rental property then man up and state it, I was only kidding. Just get off my back, Bully boy. Really! I appreciate the work you did on my pad and paid you for it.
Wow... that's weird...
Ummm... relax Coz... as you say, "I'm just joking..." "I was kidding.... " "relax...."
All this has to do with is you looking and acting like a buffoon once more in the forum. That's all. Could have been anyone... but alas, once again it was you. The big bluster routine and calling guys to the mat is so F'n funny though.... don't stop.
It is a fatal flaw that Metcalf made me aware of, and he knows (Peter Metcalf) exactly what I'm talking about.
If this is remotely true, which I actually doubt, you should do the right thing and start a class action suit or something. At least light the fuse on the bomb.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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The problem with BD harnesses is the overlay webbing (tie in point) is split, if you clip your tie in knot, separate from your belay device and if you are clipped into an anchor and take a fall on said anchor you will have the same force as applied to a daisy chain pocket. Your harness could fail...
coz, what is the "overlay webbing"? When would I ever "clip [my] tie in knot"? How is the belay device involved with my tie in knot? How would a particular construction/design result in a certain "force"? Is there a 2kN strength rating on a critical part of the harnesses similar to daisy chains?
I'll be honest - your description is not clear.
edit in: I have at least four different BD harnesses - a Chaos, a Momentum, a Bod, and a Couloir. I don't see a "split" anywhere.
I'm making a serious attempt at understanding what you are referring to. Feel free to post back that I'm not intelligent enough to be worth responding to...
but I'm honestly trying to understand you.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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The problem with BD harnesses is the overlay webbing (tie in point) is split, if you clip your tie in knot, separate from your belay device and if you are clipped into an anchor and take a fall on said anchor you will have the same force as applied to a daisy chain pocket. Your harness could fail...
If you need photos and a more clear explanation, I suggest bringing Chris Harmston out of retirement. If you cannot follow along, you don't know enough to post.
huh???
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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jfs,
I'm sure that wearing only two is sufficient.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
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ha! Ron. Yes, I agree. But I feel so much safer when I'm wearing all four.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
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The problem with BD harnesses is the overlay webbing (tie in point) is split, if you clip your tie in knot, separate from your belay device and if you are clipped into an anchor and take a fall on said anchor you will have the same force as applied to a daisy chain pocket. Your harness could fail...
If you need photos and a more clear explanation, I suggest bringing Chris Harmston out of retirement. If you cannot follow along, you don't know enough to post.
damn. was this the bomb we were all waiting for? i think it was a dud.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
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I think what Coz is trying to say is that if the belay loop and another tie in point of your harness (E.g.a rope or personal anchor system)is pulled in opposite directions. This would have to be a high load situation where a leader falls immediately after leaving a belay or maybe a case where a person takes a huge enough fall to pull the belayer upwards and pull on the anchor severely.
In any case more specific information on harness type is needed from Coz!
Erik
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dirhk
Trad climber
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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The problem with BD harnesses is the overlay webbing (tie in point) is split, if you clip your tie in knot, separate from your belay device and if you are clipped into an anchor and take a fall on said anchor you will have the same force as applied to a daisy chain pocket.
Coz was gonna be a tech rep.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
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Hmm. Don't have a harness at hand and oddly enough can't remember what the details are but - - isn't Coz saying if you clip your belay anchor through the tie-in loop on the waist belt and fall you will get a sideways pull on the bar tacs like you would get on a daisy? Only thing I can think of.
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mwatsonphoto
Trad climber
los angeles, ca
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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wouldn't that be true of all harnesses and not exclusive to a particular model of BD?
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 17, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
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Seems like it. I have some harnesses in the basement but I'm too lazy to go look. Good nite.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 18, 2012 - 01:47am PT
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Couple of final questions. In the Fall of '10 or early winter of '11 BD obviously made an inline change and added 30% or more material to the front point area on the frame of the Sabers where both models (I & II) have been breaking.
We have been calling them Gen I and Gen II for clarity's sake.
As late as last Fall (2011) you could still buy Gen I Sabers at retailers online and in person. Can you still?
Was there ever a recall internally of the Gen I crampons and replacement with Gen IIs. If you own Gen Is will BD replace them with Gen IIs prior to a failure?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 18, 2012 - 02:42am PT
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No idea if BD will replace " gen 1 with gen 2". I suggest you send them an email and ask. Probably much more likely to get an answer.
Please post their response here.
Erik
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