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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 26, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
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Ed, regarding the PNAS paper, and the fact that life on Earth began almost as soon as the planet settled down from its violent beginnings, there is one question that I find interesting:
If life is "easy" to get going given the right kind of conditions, such as liquid water, then has it not occurred more than once on Earth, since the conditions are considered so ripe? I asked my friend the monster evolutionary biologist this question.
He thought about it for a minute and said that no. Life almost certainly began only once. All life shares a unviversal genome. Meaning that all life is genetically linked to a common ancestor.
I found that interesting. It is difficult to understand the origin question since we have a sample size of only one.
The origin question is fascinating, but it is lacking in empirical evidence. When I refer to the fossil bacteria, I am referring to stromatolites, which are colonies of bacteria that have a huge fossil signature. Soft parts are extremely difficult to preserve.
Another thing to consider is how much life exists in the ground beneath our feet. I should go google this up, but life has been found at great depths in wellbores.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 26, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
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So will you be using SuperTopo as an example of a lifeform that evolved, or was intelligently designed?
(A somewhat rhetorical question actually intended for skywalker, but it seems with other applications.)
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 26, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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I put this in a seperate post, but regarding life's ability to thrive in strange environments with strange energy sources other than the sun is interesting.
Life can thrive in many very harsh conditions.
It has been observed on Mars that during the summer, the amount of methane over large areas increases. Many have pondered that this may be the signature of life on Mars, albeit not at the surface. To get at WHY methane increases in the summer requires covering a lot of scientific ground.
As for JL's constant dislike of "reductionism," I don't get it. Reducing complicated systems to their component parts has been a very fruitful way of examining many things.
You can look at the engine of a car and zen out on it when it breaks down, or you can just start studying engines, and realize that it is the sum of many smaller parts. Then you are a mechanic. It is kind of like that with evolution. A guy like Rick Santorum won't even look, because the Bible has already told him.
That is a pretty crappy method of examining things.
I would love to take a dozen taco members on a two week geology field trip. Every rock tells a story, and when you put all of those stories into the larger, coherent, picture, it is damn fascinating.
The Earth has an incredibly long and complex history.
When I get hired to work an area for oil and gas exploration, I tear down everything into detailed work first. It is the only way to understand the big picture. I am kind of like a mechanic. I understand engines. So they throw me a new engine and I have to figure it out.
It is unfortunate that I haven't been able to publish a single time in my career. Geology is considered an asset by the IRS. Expenses for a geologist have to be depriciated just like a tract of land.
So oil and gas companies don't go around telling other companies what they have learned. It kind of sucks. Things do get around, though. Companies will steal each other's geologists. On my big client, the first thing they did was download several years worth of data from my computers.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 26, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
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MH, great observation.
Chris Mac created the place, so it was intelligently designed.
It has morphed into something that I doubt he predicted, so it has also evolved.
He also steps in and changes things now and then. So in the case of Supertopo, you could say that CMac is God.
Go get on thine knees and beg him not to nuke us!
In the case of Supertopo, we have great data. It is also a simple question.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 26, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
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life could have started many times and been different, only to be wiped out and started from scratch...
...life now would have descended from the last time life started, there would be no trace of earlier life
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 26, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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Isn't the question whether that life was always DNA-based, each time it started or restarted? In other words, must life be DNA based, at least for places with liquid water?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 26, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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DNA is far down the line of life's development... in most theories of life.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 26, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
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DNA is far down the line of life's development... in most theories of life.
What's interesting here is that like the ad nauseum "mind" thread, we can have sage chemical/biological/atomic definitions of "life," but they don't quite get it done for us. I think there can be no question that for humans, the body hosts "life," and is alive, but explaining or defining life by dint of bodily terms alone satisfies few of us. This is so obvious that who would say that a purely physical description of your Sig. Other is the whole story. The difficulty in grasping the "extra," the mustard on the frank, so to speak, is what makes answering Ed's question so slippery.
Quite aside from what we believe, we all intuitively suspect there is something, some emergent quality to being alive that is not strictly betrayed by the parts.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 26, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
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SOUL ....
Animates the material elements.
If ya ain't got one you're a corpse ......
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 26, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
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Life: in the beginning there is the liquid stage, in maturity we share liquids, as we age we move back to the non sharing liquid stage until, eventually, there is only dust.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 26, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
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you have a sketch of a theory, but not a theory... but if you think you have one, start with your theory's definition of life
I'm not sure where the discussion is at this point.
As far as I know, no one is satisfied with that theory...
I think I was posting to express my satisfaction with...
 the Scientific Story (as a theory)
evolutionary theory
other standard biogenesis (or abiogenesis) theories
That's all. Perhaps I was reading too much into your use of "theory" I don't know.
.....
If you recall Sagan's Cosmos episode where he portrays evolution in 40 seconds from phospholipid membrane through honey badger to human... that whole "picture" is a "theory" that personally I am "satisfied" with.
"theory" in some circles can simply mean contemplation, conception, consideration, supposition or ideation, perhaps as a basis of action. That usually works for me. Also, it comes from the Greek, theorein, as I'm sure you know which means to see, view. So it can also mean "speculation." but let's not tell Werner. :)
.....
Seems to me...
You can trust in a theory, you can have faith in it.
There are reasonable theories and unreasonable theories.
A theory (or system of theories) doesn't need to be 100% certain before you act on it; or before you can incorporate it into your belief system or practice of living.
These are a few principles of "theory" - or ideas or theorems concerning "theory" - that are hardly discussed it seems to me in philosophy, religion, even science circles.
Yet these ideas, principles and definitions regarding "theory" (also "belief" and "faith") are relevant in all these many posts and threads concerning science versus religion.
I think the language, otherwise terminology, that's used in these discussions is going to improve in the next 100 years.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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The word water will never quench your thirst.
If one chants the sound vibration word, water, it will not act to quench your thirst.
But there are sound vibrations that are absolute and non different and will act.
Thus language is not the most important factor because it only describes.
Actual realization is superior ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 27, 2012 - 01:48am PT
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I mean a scientific theory... like The Standard Model of Particle Physics, General Relativity, etc...
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 27, 2012 - 09:59am PT
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That is a really interesting topic: The evolution of religion.
There are so many diverse faiths. Among the Abrahamic religions, which all worship the same one God, you have Jews, then Christians, then Muslims, and now Mormons.
Go read the various books. They are whacky different. They also all warn of following false prophets. How the hell am I to know which ones are false? The Book of Mormon says that early on, but then it takes quite the leap to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet.
That said, Mormons make great neighbors, at least around here.
I found the Koran unreadable. It was so violent in the first ten pages.
Also, each of these religions are splintered like crazy within themselves.
So if you are starting out from scratch, and are searching for some sort of spiritual life, where the hell do you start?
All religion I know of offers one thing: eternal life. Could it be that people find it hard to believe that who we are can be snuffed out in a second, never to exist again?
I have always been interested in the topic, and the old testament is totally different in tone from the new testament. The Koran is very different from the bible. The Book of Mormon is very different from the New Testament.
I don't know much about Hinduism, but how would I know which religion to pick? I mean, if I get it wrong, I may end up in eternal hell or come back as a rectal bacteria.
Maybe it is because I have a hard time with preachers. I was raised a Methodist, and all of my friend's parents thought I was going to hell for not being a Baptist.
Look at Joel Osteen on the cable TV. He teaches the new "Prosperity Religion." Pray hard enough and you will get rich. I can't reconcile that with the teachings of Jesus, who loved the poor. Some Christians have no problem ignoring that line:
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."
It is soundly ignored. At the same time, many Christians hate homosexuals because there are a couple of lines tucked away in the bible. It is pick and choose.
No lie. If you have cable, watch Joel Osteen in his full arena megachurch in Houston. Also tune in to the Spring Sharathon. It is just like QVC selling shwag.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 27, 2012 - 10:24am PT
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...but how would I know which religion to pick?
You don't get to pick. It is picked for you. Have you seen what happens when people of the same exact religion who believe in the exact same God have a small difference of opinion about some minor issue?
Dave
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 27, 2012 - 10:31am PT
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I should have never brought up religion. It should be over in the God, Politics and Science thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2012 - 10:42am PT
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There's no such thing as Hinduism.
The word comes from the Muslims not being able to pronounce the word Sindhu properly which is a region of the river Sindhu (Indus).
There's no such word as Hindu exists in all of the Vedas.
There's no such thing as "offered eternal life".
This is why it's called "life".
All living entities are already eternally living.
The individual soul transmigrates from body to body according to the consciousness one develops in the present life.
The modern day defective understanding that the living entity is the material body is due poor fund of knowledge.
You develop a dog mentality in this life and you'll take a dog body in your next life, for crude example.
People just make up sh!t all the time due to ignorance.
Modern material science will thus "claim" these statements are completely wrong due to not understanding the "science of the soul" .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 27, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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Straight from wiki:
The term "theory" is a polyseme, even among scientists. While most scientists reserve the term for verifiable principles, others use it to refer to hypothetical frameworks.
I like wiki.
___
re: life
re: theory of life
I support the biorganic model... in other words, the biorganic theory... of life.
This differs radically from the traditional view of life - or "theory" of life - as pushed by most religions, e.g., the Abrahamic religions.
"Biorganic" is a neonym.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 27, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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Fruity, you gotta give that Abrahamic religious boondogling a rest. It's tedious and a dead end.
I'm with Ed on wanting to hear about a "scientific theory... like The Standard Model of Particle Physics, General Relativity, etc..."
In this way, the interesting parts of evolution - like the transition from inanimate matter to replicating cells - can be strictly ascribed to a certain set of chemicals and conditions that can be observed and replicated.
Now THAT would clear the air about the origin of life, though it would not limit said origin or "creation" to a one-and-done or one-time event. As some pointed out already, everything from the big bang to the presence of life in the universe can be seen as an endless cycle lest we are facing the ultimate paradox that a dimensionless no-thing sourced "all and everything."
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 27, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
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you gotta give that Abrahamic religious boondogling a rest
well, maybe here at supertopo as it's enlightened. ;)
but have you checked out American politics lately? the "theories" of the Abrahamic religion known as Christianity are driving at least half the GOP's metabolism these days. A fella by the name of Santorum who still believes this world is a three-layer cake is a viable candidate for U.S. Pres in 2012.
...and in other parts of the world, supernatural theism in the Abrahamic vein is running so strong humans there by the millions actually believe the same way their ancient forebears did 2000 plus years ago - that the Creator of the Universe gets pissed when his Word or Revelation is burned and that you're doing His Work, just what He wants, when you strike down (American) infidels. These Abrahamic religious views - or Abrahamic religious "theories" - have directly or indirectly costed us billions to fight under pseudonyms like "terrorism," "culture wars," etc.
If one cares about human performance or civilization (or the continued ascent of humanity in the 21st century)(yes, even as the world runs out of oil), then the Abrahamic religion's footprint in today's world is hardly irrelevant and needs addressing, dealing with.
.....
Obviously we will never be able to turn the clock back on the origin of life to see how the processes unfolded exactly. This the case, all we have to work with now beyond evidence and systems of knowledge are speculations and theories.
Choose your theory to support and pull the trigger. Or remain on the fence. It's believer's choice. It's mind's choice.
.....
Evolution of life... via evolution of protobiotic replicator molecules... via proto-bacteria... via cell colonies... via polyps, etc.... is an acceptable working theory for inclusion in my own personal belief system and practice of living for moving forward.
The point is that this working theory is a great deal more "acceptable" and satisfying than anything on offer from any Abrahamic religion. More relevant, too. (Though R Santorum would disagree.)
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