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Bababata
Mountain climber
Utopia
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Jan 22, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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@fòradaiball
I am not American. Sorry you feel so hurt over this.
ciao!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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In Clint's photo's .... holy sh!t !!!!
That Maestri guy pulled out all stops on that thing. LOL
That's why if you're gonna do something do it "Big".
Jason & Hayden is just the "Big" karmic reaction for the other "Big"
It's over .... do the next "Big" ......
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Kimbo
Sport climber
seattle
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Jan 22, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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My point is that in the moment of actual doing, what you or I think about the Compresso route had nothing whatsoever to do with what the boys did up there. I have no doubt that many will try and MAKE it there businenss after the fact, but the fact has already marched past - should we like it or not is irrelevant, and is our issue, not theirs.
Yes.
True that what you nor I nor ANYONE else thought seems to have mattered very little to the "boys".
And there lies the problem:
The "boys" took it upon themselves to remove bolts from a climb that seemingly they didn't even do, and was immensely enjoyed by many others.
It seems that you pay homage to a world where "the able" make the rules, to hell with the others, let the "heroes" follow their passions! (5.11 A2?!?)
I used to myself, but I suppose my youthful passions have been tempered by a more consensual democratic approach to life and problem-solving
("passions" seem to be terrible decision-makers).
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Jan 22, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
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Is somebody going to step up and finish the job, I wonder? Should be all or nothing regardless of the motive for it, but particularly if it was to clean up the mountain.
The mob and cop scene in Chalten won't make that a desirable task. After all the acrimony over this eyesore, it would be most lamentable if that remaining mess stayed up there but now serving no function. At least the old mess got put to use for climbing.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Jan 22, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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It is hard to imagine what Maestri was thinking when he put 10 bolts in that station (Clint's first photo posted)! He must have been having fun playing with his new compressor...
What bugs me the most about it is that he had the gall to leave the damn compressor up there! Like anybody would think that was cool. What a choade.
I agree with just about everything that has been posted, both pro and con! But I come up on the side that says they should have left the bolts alone. Chopping them really does reek of arrogance. Heck, I think the routes looks fun! I mean, if Maestri wanted to put in all that work to put in a bolted route that has obviously become popular...then let it be!
Also hard to imagine that those holes won't get filled back up anyway...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 22, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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I've read every damn post on this thread, and I'm still not certain how I really feel about the whole chopping thing! Certainly everyone please keep posting photos so we can see more about what we're ranting about. I would also like to hear more detail from guys who have actually climbed the route, or at least rappelled it.
Also, we really need all of the Italian guys' posts translated into English, please.
 is it still viable to rappel the Compressor Route?
which bits got chopped, and which remain?
how do the local climbers feel about this now? We are mostly only reading the comments from wankers like me, who have never even been to the place!
has there been any further action by the police?
I think my biggest concern is that the out-of-town lads took it upon themselves to do something that was considered and then specifically rejected after considering the consensus of locals. [It was described many pages above a 75% agreement the bolts should stay, and the specifics are below, thanks to Ezy] So why these guys? And why now? What gave them the right over everyone else? And why were these bolts knott removed years ago?
accordingly, what were the reasons given by the locals that the Compressor Route should not be chopped? Convenience to reach the summit or descend from it? Historical significance? While the results of the vote are reproduced below, the reasons were not given, and they would certainly be interesting to hear.
Request: can someone please post up various editorial comments from back in the day, specifically Ken Wilson's, and also Reinhold Messner's if you can find them, please.
Question: could or should some of the pulled bolts be replaced? Could the holes be reused?
For instance, should "stupid" bolts next to useable cracks remain chopped, but should "legit" bolts that cross blank sections of rock to link climbable features be replaced?
Regardless, the holes should be patched with epoxy to render them as invisible as possible. There is not excuse for not doing this, as it is neither difficult nor time consuming.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 22, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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Jason Kruk & Hayden Kennedy may be young but they are not boys.
Those cats are REAL MEN!
And if the route they established is the logical line to the summit of Cerro Torre then many, many future aspiring alpinists have not been robbed of a grand opportunity. It isn't as if they established a route that only they could do. And if some future uberbad uberrad climber sends the headwall in good style wouldn't that be a good thing.
Conversely you could have a hoard of David Lamas grid bolting the life and spirit out of the mountains and leaving a trashy legacy. I don't think that would be better.
Now if you folks who are so distraught about the cleaning down of the Bolt Route well then I have a list of American routes that could benefit from some proper clean up.
Peace Brothers.
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ALPINEMAN
Trad climber
bogota
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Jan 22, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
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And if the route they established is the logical line to the summit of Cerro Torre
logical il cazzo!
logical is not another bolted line
I repeat: 5 bolts is the same concept of 300 bolts
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 22, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
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5 bolts as opposed to 450.
Seems logical enough to me.
why not just hang a giant extension ladder up the headwall?
Clipping endless A0 bolts is not climbing it is masturbating.
Speaking of ladders, I wish they would pull that fukin Chinese ladder off of Everest.
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ALPINEMAN
Trad climber
bogota
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Jan 22, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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5 bolts as opposed to 450.
Seems logical enough to me.
NO, same idea, compressor everytime with you (lighter than Maestri)
this is "by fair means"?
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 22, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
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@ Philo:
I think you could easily be the son of Maestri and the brother of these kids.
Bottom line: who are these guys to decide what to do?
It does not matter if chopping was good or bad. Who are they to decide?
Ciao,
E
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 22, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
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With reference to:
"The area was designated a park in 1959 and a UNESCO site in 1970 - the same year as the first Earth Day. The "environmental knowledge" was public, open and there for anyone to adopt. The fact his climbs coincided with these dates is no small irony. How old are you? You don't seem to have a very good grip on the times. "
I am 42.
And I am on of the people cleaning in december 1994, the lower part of Pilastro Goretta (Aka Casarotto Route) on Fitz Roy. A few hundreds meters of old rope and a bunch of woden pitons (and some I still have here).
E
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ezy
Mountain climber
Italy
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Jan 22, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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bravo Kinobi!!!
Patagonian Democracy: On Lovers' Day (Mountain Lovers').
by Vicente Labate
On 14th February this year (2007), after a slide show by the Pou brothers, an assembly was held at Los Glaciares National Park Visitors' Centre, Lago Viedma Section, better known as El Chaltén, attended by climbers from several corners of the world: Venezuela, Brazil, Germany, Switzerland, The United States, Spain, Mexico, Chile and Argentina, together with both the president and secretary of the local Andean Club and the local Chief Ranger. The main objective of the meeting was to discuss the possible removal of expansion bolts placed by Cesare Maestri on Cerro Torre's south-western arête during his expedition in 1970, known as "The Compressor Route", the most criticized but also most frequently climbed route on the mountain. (I recommend reading the rather extensive story)
The idea of the meeting had been suggested by Ranger Carlos Duprez after an Argentinean climber had reported a party by the American team made up by Josh Wharton and Zach Martin, who had arrived at the park with the intention to climb the above mentioned arête without resorting to the bolts and if they accomplished their attempt they would descend by The Compressor Route with the idea of "cleaning" it by means of a device that they called "especial for the job"
At the end of the slide show people started to leave as it seemed that many didn't know what was going to happen. I approached Duprez and enquired about the meeting. I had hoped one of them would take up the role of moderator, but Carlos replied he was not going to do anything, they had only suggested the meeting and offered the premises for it to be held, and as they didn't understand much about the core of the affair they would comply with any decisions taken in the assembly. Despite the fact that it's practically impossible for a ranger to reach the "head wall" (hope to God they never will, for the sake of our independence!) we must bear in mind that the mountain stands within a national park created to protect the local biodiversity and the natural and CULTURAL Argentinean heritage.
Arguments in favour and against the removal of the bolts were put forward followed by voting for or against the expressed arguments keeping in sight the most relevant issues: the international climbing community as the main participants in the controversy, the National Park, the local community, Cerro Torre as a tourist goal and the mountain itself (with all the subjective mysticism of those aspiring to step on its summit, as long as "stepping" does not mean denigrating)
The National Park rangers abstained from voting, the local population had no idea of what a bolt was and therefore were not represented, and as us, the "Mohameds", go to the mountain, She was not present either. Only climbers had a vote.
If we take the assembly participants as the sample of a particular universe, they can be considered representative, since the meeting took place in the high season when the flow of international climbers is at its peak, and as the weather wasn't the ideal the whole climbing world spectrum was present.
During the meeting we attempted at the exposition of ideas without passing judgment, accepting and tolerating differing views, all aiming at a democratic agreement by means of a general vote. Everybody's say was precious, as it had been when signatures had been gathered for the Fitz Roy north pillar wouldn't be purchased by an economic group or when National Parks had been persuaded not to charge a climbing fee.?
It's worth mentioning the participation of some renowned climbers, such as Alex Huber or Iker Pou, making it clear that being well-known does not make their vote more significant, just famous. It's not necessary to be an elite
climber to understand the impact the bolts have had on the mountain and the climbing.
I should also mention that some Argentinean and Latin American climbers, beyond interpersonal relations, did not agree with granting foreigners the right to vote, mainly to those climbers from Europe, North America, Germany among others. However, as the history of Patagonian alpinism is written by everybody (by means of routes, attempts, with shelters, assemblies, etc) we did not repeat Maestri's mistake and allowed everybody's vote to lead us to an
answer.
Give Torre Its Wild Side Again
The mountain is not wild any more (needless to say we are not referring here to its whimsical weather changes), it stopped being wild the day the first occidental human gave it a name, a value, and particularly when the town of El Chaltén was founded in 1985. The mountain has not stopped being wild because of the number of bolts it has, but because there's a town which fully caters for all needs just a few walking hours away, with two supermarkets, satellite internet connection and a fully paved road straight to " The Patagonian Vegas", El Calafate (airport and casino included).
Not only the surrounded facilities and services have deprived it of its wildness, but what kind of doubt may there remain as to the easy accessibility these peaks have since a relatively accurate weather forecast can be obtained by phone or the Web at any moment?
Common Sense
Different interests coexist in this world, more often than not these interests are contradictory, and within that diversity we can find cultures, languages, food, buildings, etc. To accept this diversity is to accept ourselves / to accept our human nature.
Therefore, the search for Common Sense becomes imperative, especially in order not to tread on anybody else's rights. We are fully aware that our globalized society is still far from reaching this goal, but, why can't we, climbers, at least give it a try, since we make up a very reduced universe?
Ideas were put forward in an openly. The talk was carried out in Spanish but translators were available whenever necessary. We were all granted time and respect for our views to be expressed clearly and at ease. When every soul had their say, hands were raised to vote.
The Result
Hands were counted on the spot. Nobody said a word after the second group voted. From about 40 people, approximately 30 voted for the bolts to remain on the mountain.
Conclusion
Despite the fact we expressed our views, the issue is not over, lets be ready for growth an evolution.
In my opinion, this summer gave us the opportunity to say:
No to bolt ladders on any mountain as from now.
Yes to the search for common solutions.
No to any kind of dominance, in ideas or actions.
Yes to accepting history as part of our culture.
Vincente Labate
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=35788
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jan 22, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
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After looking at the Pataclimb.com site, it looks to me like the "Fair Means" ascent has been a work in progress for some time, with successive teams working out clean variations to the SE ridge.
From what I can gather, it looks like Hayden and Kruk pulled off a complete "fair means" ascent, as the definition has evolved among a small number of actual players in the last couple decades.
I'm still a bit perplexed by the fact that the current fair-means definition seems to exclude bolt ladders but include the bolted belay stations (belays are part of climbing, too). The mountain nor the bolts know which ones fit into which category--just another hair splitting definition defined by infallible humans.
At first, chopping bolts on rappel seemed vindictive to me, but upon further reflection ("speculation", as Werner would remind me), at best, methinks the chopping of this classic route was a bit premature due to the fact that the bolted belays have still not been eliminated (my opinion--but then again, I would never consider chopping anyone else's creations, I'd just go somewhere else--the world is a big place). But in the end, the Compressor Route had it coming, just as John Long eloquently writes, the march was already in progress, we're all just bystanders watching the progression go by.
If anyone's that concerned, go down there and give it a go. Perhaps you might find that you too can climb it by the current "fair means" variants to the original route. There's probably a tiny tiny minority of folks whose level of ability would have enabled them to climb it with the compressor bolts, but not via the fair-means variations.
Primarily, the ante has likely been upped by the fact that the weather window needs to be that much more favourable (on the headwall pitches) to climb 5.11 rather than A1.
But again, it will be good to hear direct from the participants in this current saga of Cerro Torre.
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ALPINEMAN
Trad climber
bogota
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Jan 22, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
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in the 2020, if other party don't use the 5 bolts variation... will be "by fair means" with the addiction "clean"?
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Kimbo
Sport climber
seattle
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Jan 22, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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@ EZY: thanks for posting that.
@ all who speak favorably of the hayden/kruk action: what is your thinking about the posted article?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 22, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
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@ Philo:
I think you could easily be the son of Maestri and the brother of these kids.
Nope I am just a humble Pollock way past his prime and old enough to be their proud father.
I am honestly sorry that this action has both stirred a controversial pot and marred what is otherwise quite a fantastic ascent by two young, talented and driven alpinists.
The post about the meeting in Chaltan does carry significant weight for your argument that they shouldn't have done the chopping without the approval of consensus.
So what do you feel should be done in the spirit of restorative justice?
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 22, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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Thanks Ezy!
Patagonian Democracy.
[...]
From about 40 people, approximately 30 voted for the bolts to remain on the mountain. That's incredible!
Climbers decide democratically and two scherifs act ignoring people's opinion!!!
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ALPINEMAN
Trad climber
bogota
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Jan 22, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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american style
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 22, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
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Come on, Alpineman - this wasn't something the US government did, so quit equating the actions of a couple guys with politics. I "get" that you're annoyed, but what you say is irrelevant and inflammatory.
Besides, one of the guys is a Canadian.
[Of course, no Canadian would ever do anything that might offend anyone. We would always ask permission first. And if we do get mad, about the worst we'll do is call you names. Please excuse me if the above post offended anyone]
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