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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 27, 2011 - 08:56pm PT
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Interesting thread summed up by the comment early on: "I was privy this week to a story that if spun from first appearances would make a sensational story of US military involve in graft and corruption in Haiti when the real story was resourceful guys getting the job done while stranded by the complete failure of both the State Dept, and the dysfunctional Haitian society."
What you see in the above, and in much of the thread herein, is the tendency for us to think in black and white, losing sight that we live in the gray all the way. Haiti is a shithole full of grifters and cheats and thugs - and plenty of fine people besides. The US military did a lot of great humanitarian work there but some were involved in graft and corruption and shenanigans because that stuff always goes on and always will be so long as humans are in play.
JM, JK, me and you are at least half full of sh#t about a whole lot of stuff. Of course there are shenanigans with the Pakistani operation because there always is. Most of us can do wonderful things sometimes. Sometimes not. It doesn't make us good or bad, rather human.
60 Minutes often feels reactionary and immature and punitive. It plays of the basic thrill of righteousness and exposing the "bad guy," and in this way, the producers sew the seeds of their own destruction by all-or-nothing thinking. You can make most anyone sound like a scoundrel or a saint, depending on your line of inquiry. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle - deep in the gray.
JL
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 27, 2011 - 09:09pm PT
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People will either pillory or praise 60 Minutes depending on how they feel about the person or institution being investigated.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 27, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
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60 Minutes has remarkably little to do with this.
The show got involved because of Krakauer's research and story. The show has a lot of dough, so they invested in a bit more research (the sort that would supply visuals), and then ran the sort of thing that they now regularly run, a piece somewhere between the sort of investigative telejournalism of the seventies that gave the show its start, and the cheesy tabloid crap that now rules the airwaves.
The CNN story was comparatively good, given our current standards for telejournalism, which are sh#t.
This whole thing is a pathetic farce. I would just laugh, except that there really are irons in the fire.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
WA, & NC & Idaho
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Apr 27, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
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Largo gets it right, once again!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Apr 28, 2011 - 12:08am PT
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Gene, my good ST Friend.
I don't think anyone comes out "smelling like a rose" on this planet or in this lifetime. We are all imperfect individuals. Some do their best to be their best and help others. Some don't try at all, and some fall in the middle.
Think by now Greg Mortensen gets the picture. He has mailed out a letter addressing in general the accusations placed against him.
I don't know this man's heart or mind, but he does and so does God. Think that we as a community need to be very sure about what we say before we say it. Easy for each one of us, myself included to find the error but overlook the good.
That said, let's see what we can do to help this organization overcome their challenges. Don't know of any other group that has the entrance into this part of the world as GM does. For a variety of reasons I feel our outreach of help is of utmost importance. Jess sayin', lynnie
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zeta
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Apr 28, 2011 - 12:32am PT
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That said, let's see what we can do to help this organization overcome their challenges. Don't know of any other group that has the entrance into this part of the world as GM does. For a variety of reasons I feel our outreach of help is of utmost importance
sorry, but I have to disagree...there are definitely other groups that have been doing good works in that part of the world...and have been at it longer!
Aga Khan Foundation comes to mind (http://www.akdn.org/AKF);
also Global Fund for Women (http://www.globalfundforwomen.org/);
I used to volunteer with GFW--they give small grants to burgeoning women's groups throughout the developing world...they really support girl's education, along with a number of other issues...and they are ranked really high on the Chronicle of Philanthropy's transparancy ranking for non profits...
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snowleopard
Mountain climber
Beijing, China
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Apr 28, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
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A few observations: one--Krakauer has been called many things, but a humanitarian is not one of them; and two--the dude has made multi-millions off the backs of dead men (Chris McCandalless, A. Boukereeve, Pat Tilman) so his rage over donating $75,000 is a hollow argument.
I also question why his e-book was free for one week, and now it must be purchased for $2.99. If this inquisition is truly about "getting the truth out" then why is Krakauer charging for the truth? He doesn't need the money, and him giving the profits away for girls in the sex traffic trade in Nepal is a bit like a rapist donating to the rape crisis fund.
I know of no other writer (in or outside the mountaineering literary community) who has made so many enemies (ok, maybe Norman Mailer, a lot of women hated him), but his glee in bring people down is on the sadistic side, as well as his ghoulish fettish over reporting on bizzare and grisly deaths. To come out, attack, and then retreat under "no comment, read my sh#t," are pussy tactics.
The dude has a few ice screws loose, and time will tell who is being most truthful. In the meantime, the girls in Afghanistan will have to ask the sex trafficked girls in Nepal for a loan....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Apr 28, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
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Still stick by my words in the last post. But to clarify....by helping those in the area I mean all those that render aide, not just Mortensen.
Especially feel the need to help Afganistan. I believe we promised more aide to them as a nation, than we have delivered.
I appreciate all of you that gave the names and information of other organizations working in this part of the world. Thanks, lynne
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 28, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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Well if we're giving out +1's, I'll give one to Stitch for his post above.
There's undoubtedly some complexity as to the details, but in the big picture, it's pretty freaking simple.
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Apr 29, 2011 - 12:05am PT
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Snowleopard, an argument that can be dismantled sentence by sentence as easily as yours can is not worth anyone's time to bother doing it.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2011 - 12:10am PT
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Nice ad hominem attack there, snowleopard. I know JK is controversial, but none of his major claims in three cups of deceit, i.e. the fake kidnapping and financial abuses, have been disputed. Whether you personally dislike JK is irrelevant to GM and his management of CAI.
To come out, attack, and then retreat under "no comment, read my sh#t," are pussy tactics.
Its funny you have these standards for JK, who went on 60 mins, yet ignore that GM ignored all requests for an interview with 60 mins and has yet to respond to serious allegations mentioned above. Why haven't you called GM a "pussy"?
I understand these issues are complicated, but the fundamentals of financial mismanagement and downright lies are crystal clear.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 29, 2011 - 12:12am PT
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I have not posted to date on this thread.
However: I am bothered that "Snowleopard" in a previous post, rips on Krakauer--------- on "Snowleopards" very first post on ST.
Seems a little "biased"-------and "lobbyist-like" to me.
Snowleopard = Lobbyist??
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 29, 2011 - 12:37am PT
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the dude has made multi-millions off the backs of dead men (Chris McCandalless, A. Boukereeve, Pat Tilman)
If you are going to pretend to defend the honor of dead people, do them the good grace of spelling their names right.
It's:
Christopher McCandless
Anatoli Boukreev
Patrick Tillman
Also, of these three, Boukreev was very much alive when Krakauer wrote about him. He died later. Krakauer did write about the deaths of Christopher McCandless and Patrick Tillman, but he had the full support of the McCandless family and the support of Patrick Tillman's wife.
But no matter how much you demonize Krakauer, does that make Mortenson any better? Some people don't like his interpretations, but non one has uncovered falsehoods in his book on the scale of those in Mortenson's.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 29, 2011 - 12:43am PT
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America, founded in it's modern state by Puritans. Well meaning Protestants who have a habit of seeing the world as how it should be VS.how it is.
I wish some of the heavy hitting lurkers I know would post a basic lesson in reality on how things get done in Pakistan.
It's not the lies that he may have told or the bribes he may have paid in Pakistan that anyone cares about. In fact, I don't remember anyone even accusing him of that.
It's the lies he told and the funds he took here in the USA that have gotten him into trouble.
But maybe Jim Brennan is posting a basic lesson in reality in how he does things in Canada.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Apr 29, 2011 - 12:50am PT
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To me, the whole problem roots from the way we tell stories, especially in the U.S. Like the myth that Americans love an underdog. We love an underdog turning into a rocket. People take on big projects in the Third World, spin simplistic tales of overcoming great odds, and donors love that. What's interesting to me are the stories of losing--assuming you didn't just get flattened by a safe. Or stories that illustrate how impossibly much harder things are on the ground out there in a different language and culture than you thought they would be. But the bs narratives of learning to see the world like the wise natives are among the worst. Once had a revered shaman ask me for some ibuprofen way out in the jungle. I was nonplussed. As he tossed it back he said, "Maybe this will kill me," and cracked up.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 29, 2011 - 01:01am PT
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Let us not forget this ORG that has been in that region for a longass time doing some of the most incredible work of all. The man that started it all and pretty much over saw the entire program for well over 40 years, NEVER ran around on private jets doing self promoting book tours or ever took any of the monies.... NEVER!
NOPE! He spent all of his time in country doing the work, shoulder to shoulder with all the other VOLUNTEERS over that 40+ years.
BTW, His program has completed and maintained more schools, educated more kids/orphans and built more medical facilities than any other.
Should be the model for all programs in that region to follow IMO. This program has NEVER been involved in any negative controversies what so ever. It has done nothing but bring goodness to the people it supports for well over 50 years.
The Himalayan Trust
http://www.himalayantrust.org
+1
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 29, 2011 - 01:14am PT
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Canadians, What do they know about the world, their all way out on booze and weed, with a fairy tale life, in a country without violence.
Well, coz, as you're part-Canadian, allow me to provide a bit of information. During World War I, Canadian per-capita casualties were significantly higher than those of the US. The two countries were about equal in World War II, although our per capita economic contribution was somewhat greater. Of course, the US arrived late both times, but then in World War II, the brunt of Allied casualties were in the last few years.
As for Hillary, he did do book tours, and I wouldn't be surprised if he'd had a few rides in private jets. But he always kept his personal affairs and interests distinct from those of the Himalayan Trust, and ensured it had good governance. The only sort-of criticism I've ever heard of its work is that the Sherpas and Khumbu region may have benefited disproportionately in comparison with other, equally-deserving areas.
ps The photo is of Tenzing, not Hillary.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 29, 2011 - 01:15am PT
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Think twice the next time a Greg Mortenson comes along
Monday, April 18, 2011 - Dispatches From The Heartland by John Creighton
LONGMONT, Co, April 18, 2011 — Count me among those saddened by the 60 Minutes expose uncovering improprieties and debunking many of the stories told by Greg Mortenson, best-selling author of Three Cups of Tea.
The "60 Minutes" investigation alleges that the multimillion-seller Three Cups of Tea is filled with inaccuracies. Additional accusations are that co- author Greg Mortenson's charitable organization, Pennies for Peace, has taken credit for building schools that don't exist.
My family purchased his books. My wife read the young-adult version of Three Cups of Tea to our children. We fell into the trap of thinking that purchasing books would support children in another part of the world. That may not be true.
The tragedy for Mortenson is that it didn’t have to be this way.
As best-selling author Jon Krakauer, once a supporter and now accuser of Mortenson, said on the 60 Minutes report, “Let’s be clear. He (Mortenson) has done a lot of good. He has helped thousands of school children in Pakistan and Afghanistan… He deserves credit for that. Never-the-less, he is threatening to bring it all down, to destroy all of it, by this fraud and by these lies.”
I don’t feel “betrayed” by another disgraced “hero.” As a fan of professional baseball and bicycling, I became jaded toward embracing people as heroes a long time ago. I’m more concerned about what this episode says about us.
We tend to place greater value on the work of individuals over that of groups and institutions. We elevate individuals to celebrity status. We jump on their band-wagons, supporting their cause du jour with little or no knowledge of whether their ideas are good or their claims are true.
Rather than saying shame on Mr. Mortenson we should be saying shame on us. Yet this pattern repeats itself over and over again.
In education, we believe that celebrity mayors and celebrity billionaires have better ideas to reform education than those who have dedicated their careers to finding more effective ways to motivate and support children.
In politics, we look to celebrity politicians who have more media than policy experience to lead us through the most challenging times in decades, dismissing those who have worked in the trenches as being part of the problem.
In philanthropy, we put people like Greg Mortenson on a pedestal while the work of groups such as Rotary International go largely unnoticed by the media and general public. Indeed, the work of Rotary stands in stark contrast to the efforts of Mr. Mortenson.
Rotary International, through the PolioPlus program, is a leading force in the worldwide effort to eradicate polio. There have been no book tours. There are no celebrity leaders. Rotary clubs made up of anonymous individuals raise and contribute dollars and volunteer time to eliminate this dreadful disease. The Rotary story does not make a good read. It is just good work.
The best aspect of Rotary International’s work is that it does not depend on a celebrity. Individuals come and go. But, the organization and the work continue.
Philanthropic organizations are certainly not immune to scandal. United Way and Red Cross, for instance, have had to clean up after executives guilty of severe improprieties. But, organizations can survive scandals. Those responsible for imprudent or illegal activities can be fired or arrested. The good work of the organization can continue.
Celebrity based organizations aren’t as resilient. Mr. Mortenson has done laudable work. But if he falls from grace, the support for Pakistani and Afghan children may disappear as well. That’s the real tragedy of the recent revelations.
The next time a Greg Mortenson comes around, and one will, think twice. We need to ask ourselves whether it is better to support an individual with a good story or an organization that can sustain good work.
* * *
John Creighton writes on community life and public leadership at johncr8on.com. He can be found on Twitter @johncr8on and on Facebook. John is also a member of the St. Vrain Rotary Club in Longmont, Colorado. Read more of John's work in Dispatches From The Heartland at the Communities at the Washington Times.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 29, 2011 - 01:16am PT
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The photo was taken by Sir Edmund Hillary on the first ascent of Mt. Everest.
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