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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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This is the very same arguments many of the "faithful" use regarding their being convinced of their expeiriences as "proof" that God exists, and works in their lives, when skeptics question their "proof"... They say that only those who believe in, and accept God can experience Him. That people who have already decided have effectively cut themselves off from experiencing this evidence.
Do you agree with them? If not, then why does that argument work for you in this situation, but not for them in theirs?
Good question regarding the value of consistency.
Certainly the scientists on this thread have a consistent world view. It seems to me that those who have experienced things not currently explained by science must have one too, so the honest answer must be yes to the particularism of both religion and the paranormal.
As I see it, problems arise only when:
1) Either side claims exclusive truth
2) One side or the other has the power to enforce their version of truth.
Meanwhile, the more interesting question is why can't we have both? Why must we always choose one side or the other?
Of course my own personal truth is that I want to develop both halves of my brain and explore both the physical and spiritual worlds. Probably my academic discipline which continuously debates whether it is more science or more humanities and wavers between the two, encourages this type of thinking. Then again, I chose that academic discipline because of my own personality and life experience up to that point.
In the interests of consistency, I think the many scientists, engineers, and computer programmers on this thread should ask themselves, what elements of their life brought them into those career fields? I'm guessing the answers won't involve pure logic, but the influence, both positive and negative, of other human beings and their belief systems. No one's answer will be based on pure reason.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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so then, how much is six apples minus five oranges?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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tony thats the best ? yet
jan what scientist ?
I believe 6apples - 5oranges in mexico = 1 avocado
in multi universes you just get apple slices & you owe on the oranges. you can not travel till you come up with the oranges. & you don't get your apples back.
but with new math I may be wrong.
traveling to calif. from any universe you still have to give up all your apples & oranges.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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if i can master that, i'll go on to multiplying a speed times itself.
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jstan
climber
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As usual jan has posed a central question. Why does it have to be either way?
Those who accept the paranormal as being "normal" both today and in the past have gone to great lengths to limit how others may choose. Many times using brute force in the effort. Indeed the literature followed by some of these often advocate death for non-believers( non-followers).
I don't think you can say the same about those who see the usefulness of the scientific method for learning how the real world works. You really can't. I have not heard of anyone ever being threatened with death for refusing to say "F=ma."
If paranormal followers were suddenly to allow others to have the same personal freedoms they themselves enjoy, without interference, I personally would have only one comment.
Members of a society receive benefits from being in that society and necessarily must not let their personal belief systems override their responsibilities as members of a society.
As long as a person meets their responsibility to the society and to their fellows, I think a person should be allowed to live as they choose.
It really is time for Galileo to be released from house arrest.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Oh, a bright new morning is dawning
Make way for tomorrow today
Yes, a new tomorrow is upon us
To light up a brave new day
Oh, the future's brimming with promise
And the promise is heading our way
So you can rise on that shining horizon
Make way for tomorrow today
Daring new devices will help us to succeed
Better tools for living will meet our every need
Incredible inventions through new technology
Extending life's dimensions for all humanity
Modern marvels rising around us
Bringing progress and dazzling display
So we will rise on that shining horizon
Make way for tomorrow today
Make way for tomorrow today.
.....
Iron Man 2 is awesome, make sure to see it!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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jstan-
I think you're confusing politically powerful religions with ordinary people's interests in mysticism and the paranormal. Everyone got burned at the stake by the religionists, mystics more than scientists.
As for whether scientists would ever do that or not, we can't say, as we've never given them that kind of power.
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jstan
climber
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"jstan-
I think you're confusing politically powerful religions with ordinary people's interests in mysticism and the paranormal. Everyone got burned at the stake by the religionists, mystics more than scientists.
As for whether scientists would ever do that or not, we can't say, as we've never given them that kind of power."
When you say "ordinary people" the whole question hangs for lack of definition. Do ordinary people believe in juju? But yes. All kinds of people got burned at the stake or were massacred. Most of them what you would call ordinary, I suppose.
After the creation of thermonuclear weapons I know of relatively few nuclear scientists, or scientists generally who lobbied for their use. As a matter of fact organizations of scientists came into being advocating we realize the dangers posed by these weapons. In a practical sense scientists had a bit of power at that point but the only attempt at politization was in the contrary direction.
I return to my central point. I hope we want a society in which each person can follow their own lights but do it realizing they also need to support the society that benefits them.
From our conversations I know you want this also. I suspect some people feel the scientific insistence that decisions should be made based upon data, somehow denigrates those who want to enjoy exploring new uses of the mind.
I don't. And I don't know anyone who does. It is an exploration. And an interesting one at that.
CRODOG:
I understand those words are true. I also have read that Benedict summarily ended a conversation at an Italian university when he was pressed to allow the church to make an apology for Galileo's prosecution by church authorities.
I conclude significant factions in the church still very much desire secular power and even to be itself exempt from secular authority. There is much data on this.
The lesson has not yet been learned.
Edit:
Thanks Cdog. That report or one very like it is what I had encountered.
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Crodog
Social climber
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Pope cancels visit to Italian university after protest over his views on Galileo
January 15, 2008 -- Updated 1931 GMT (0331 HKT)
•Benedict XVI due to give speech at La Sapienza university in Rome Thursday
•Academics said pope condones 1633 trial and conviction of Galileo for heresy
ROME, Italy (CNN) -- Pope Benedict XVI has canceled a planned visit to a prestigious Italian university after a protest by academics and students attacked his views on Galileo, the Vatican confirmed Tuesday.
The pope had been due to give a speech at La Sapienza university in Rome Thursday to open its academic year.
However, the visit drew criticism from academics at the university who signed a letter demanding that the trip be called off. Separately, students protested outside the university, carrying banners insisting the university is a lay institution and the pope is not welcome.
"Given the events of the past days regarding the visit of the Holy Father to La Sapienza university upon the rector's invitation, which was scheduled to take place Thursday, January 17, it was decided to postpone the event," the Vatican said in a short written statement.
Father Ciro Benedettini, a spokesman for the Vatican, confirmed to CNN the academic protests had prompted the cancellation.
In the letter, academics -- pointing to a speech the pope gave at the same university as a cardinal in 1990 -- claimed he condones the 1633 trial and conviction of the scientist Galileo for heresy.
The astronomer had argued that the Earth revolved around the Sun, in contradiction to church teachings at the time, and he was forced to renounce his findings publicly.
In comments made 15 years ago when he was still a cardinal, Pope Benedict is reported to have called the trial "reasonable and just."
During his speech, the pope -- then Cardinal Ratzinger -- quoted an Austrian philosopher Paul Feyerabend, saying, "At the time of Galileo, the church remained more loyal (or faithful) to reason than Galileo himself.
Andreas Srova, a physics professor at the university, said it would have been inappropriate for the pope to appear for the inauguration.
Srova, who signed the protest letter and is the author of a book detailing the 1633 trial, said he is "very satisfied" that the Vatican decided to cancel the trip.
"We have no objections to the pope visiting at any other time when there can be exchanges of opinion, but not at the inauguration," he said. "It was a mistake to ask him to come at this time."
CNN's Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci said it was quite extraordinary for the pope to cancel the visit just because of the objections of the students and professors. It Is especially surprising, he said, given that this is the same pope that made a controversial visit to Turkey last year.
Pope Benedict went to the predominantly Muslim country despite strained relations between the Vatican and the Islamic world following a lecture the pope gave at a German university in which he made unflattering comments about the Islamic faith
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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jstan hasn't confused anything - history is on his side.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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jstan confuses a lot. paranormal and supernatural are two different words. paranormal did not come to be used until very recently. he's developing huffcuss's habit of defining words to his pleasure and expecting everyone else to go along with it.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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in the two posts on this page he dose not.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Those who accept the paranormal as being "normal" both today and in the past have gone to great lengths to limit how others may choose. Many times using brute force in the effort. Indeed the literature followed by some of these often advocate death for non-believers( non-followers).
i can see the local tarot card readers right now, storming the gates of caltech, carrying bound-and-gagged math professors out to be tarred, feathered, hanged, drawn and quartered. never underestimate little old ladies from pasadena.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Hey, let's turn things around a wee bit:
If qualities like love, compassion and trust are eventually shown to boil down to brain states, then would this "cheapen" life in any way? would this mean life's just a joke and Nature's played a huge hoax on us.
Perhaps H. sapiens as currently evolved isn't adapted - fit - to know so much. If "knowing too much" is a maladaptation, then maybe the quest for ever more education is NOT so virtuous afer all.
I'm reading Sam Harris right now, The Moral Landscape, he's pretty confident consciousness to compassion and trust are brain states.
.....
I guess the question is, assuming "knowing too much" is a maladaption, should we turn away from excessive wideworld education or should we press on with the understanding that the maladapted will be winnowed out, left behind?
.....
Old Indian Chief: "Better if life is not understood fully, better if life remains mysterious."
More exciting NOT knowing what is up around the corner.
.....
EDIT Jstan, that's pretty funny.
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jstan
climber
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Tony:
I look up "paranormal" in the dictionary. It pertains to things "not scientificially explainable."
That's what I intended to say.
I double post the following from another thread. Tony brings it up so.....
In 2002 I sent the progenitor for this report to Jim McGillivray in Windsor Ontario. The future was becoming clear to Canadians already by 2002. He had been a golds winner years before in Scotland so I expected he was a deeply serious sort. He communicated on other matters but no reply on this. I get sneaky sometimes. You do what is necessary to get good data.
News from Canada RE: illegal immigration
The Manitoba Herald as Reported by Clive Runnels October 28, 2010
The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada has intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to stop the illegal immigration. The recent actions of the Tea Party are prompting an exodus among left-leaning citizens who fear they'll soon be required to hunt, pray, and to agree with Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck.
Canadian border farmers say it's not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, animal-rights activists and Unitarians crossing their fields at night.
"I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn," said Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield , whose acreage borders North Dakota . The producer was cold, exhausted and hungry. He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn't have any, he left before I even got a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?"
In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences, but the liberals scaled them. He then installed loudspeakers that blared Rush Limbaugh across the fields. "Not real effective," he said. "The liberals still got through and Rush annoyed the cows so much that they wouldn't give any milk."
Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals near the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons and drive them across the border where they are simply left to fend for themselves.
"A lot of these people are not prepared for our rugged conditions," an Ontario border patrolman said. "I found one carload without a single bottle of imported drinking water.
They did have a nice little Napa Valley Cabernet, though."
When liberals are caught, they're sent back across the border, often wailing loudly that they fear retribution from conservatives. Rumors have been circulating about plans being made to build re-education camps where liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer and watch NASCAR races.
In recent days, liberals have turned to ingenious ways of crossing the border. Some have been disguised as senior citizens taking a bus trip to buy cheap Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half-dozen young vegans in powdered wig disguises, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping buses and quizzing the supposed senior-citizens about Perry Como and Rosemary Clooney to prove that they were alive in the '50s. "If they can't identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show, we become very suspicious about their age," an official said.
Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are creating an organic-broccoli shortage and are renting all the Michael Moore movies. "I really feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just can't support them," an Ottawa resident said. "How many art-history majors does one country need?"
In an effort to ease tensions between the United States and Canada , Vice President Biden met with the Canadian ambassador and pledged that the administration would take steps to reassure liberals. A source close to President Obama said, "We're going to have some Paul McCartney and Peter, Paul & Mary concerts. And we might even put some endangered species on postage stamps. The President is determined to reach out," he said. The Herald will be interested to see if Obama can actually raise Mary from the dead in time for the concert!
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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OMG - Jstan you hit it right on the head.
my woman has always told me i could live anywhere i want as long as it is in the U.S.
last summer we took a little drive from L.A. up to inuvik. that is as far north in canada as you can get. on the way home we saw the carnage at the border, liberals - cold, wet - far away stare in their eyes. we laughed & drove on.
NOW after the election she's asked if i ever thought about moving to canada. & if my mountaineering skills will keep us from ending up like those poor souls. she just knows we will end up lost in the canadian woods with nothing to plug our cell phones into.
i shudder to think. the canadians don't start to get nice until you are above B.C. & with out my google map on my phone what will we do? --what will we do?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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ghost thank you. we need to get those to the border asap.
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