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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Feb 26, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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Man, I hope that the hotheads who have been ragging on each other in some of the recent threads don't follow up on this, and then meet each other in Camp 4! Don't go climbing this weekend!
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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Feb 26, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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Lovegasoline -- good points and well articulated. Indeed, we the lowly pheasants can be depended on to defend ourselves, whatever the threat or whoever the oppressor might be. The whole notion that only fat stupid rednecks have guns is just laughable.
I don't personally know anyone I would characterize as a typical "redneck". But I know quite a few highly intelligent, well-educated people who have guns of one type or another. And not for hunting. That ought to tell you something.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
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Feb 26, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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Well, generally, internet loudmouths don't spout off much in the real world.
They know some monkey would thump 'em.
Just hidin' in da basement. Or some such.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 26, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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Given that the majority of gun nuts here and elsewhere in the US never served a day in the military, the notion of some sort of revolution or insurgency is laughable.
Laughable.
DMT
So far I've learned from this thread that most gun "nuts" (I guess people who support the Constitutional right to possess weapons) are fat, lazy, rednecks.
Now I'm learning that most of them never served in the military.
I'm having a hard time keeping all that straight, in light of the fact that rural, relatively undeducated types constitute a disproportionate number of gun "nuts," those serving in the military, and rednecks.
But please keep enlightenting me, I'm learning lots of facts from you liberals. Like Paul R. taught me that lightning is more dangerous than assault: the facts I've reviewed seem to show he's off by orders of magnitude, but he's liberal and keeps saying it (even after being apprised of the apparent facts), so I guess he's right.
See that's why liberals have an unfair advantage in politics--they just make up whatever crap they feel like, and then tell everyone else how smart they are.
Edit: YEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAAAAWWWW!!!!
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
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Feb 26, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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There are also fit, trim rednecks.
Redneck? What kinda cracker's that?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 26, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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I have my stash of guns and ammo. It's there for the worst case scenario but I don't look forward to that day. I know from my days shooting IPSC that there is a substantual number of gun nuts that do think that the revolution is comeing. They are all pretty much republicans and dumber than a box of rocks. They should all have to go live in some war torn 3rd world country just to see how much fun it is. The thought of these a holes draging us down into that kind of mess is despicable.. We got a bad taste of it with the Oklahoma city bombing and to its credit the shooting world condemed that act.
Revolution is not romantic. Its bloody and horrible and more often than not results in a power shift where the winners are just as bad and corrupt as the govt that they overthrew.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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tradmanclimbs--you should move to Canada if you're so opposed to revolution. Canada was to large extent settled by people who were opposed to the American Revolution and then were either kicked out of the US or left voluntarily.
They seem to have done pretty well actually, so maybe you're on to something.
Actually I agree with you that revolution is usually a bad thing but the THREAT of revolution may keep the government in check to some extent.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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I Got nothing against Canada but I love the good ol USA.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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What I said was that the CHANCE of being shot by someone in Yosemite National Park WITH A GUN is less than being struck by lightening.
CHECK THE STATS. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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Take a look at the the recent wars in Iraq to get some perspective on how this mythical revolution would play out.
I have no doubt that over 90% of the Iraqis killed never even saw the weapon system that killed them. Most of them never even heard it either. One second they were there, waiting for a chance to shoot at something, the next second they were dead.
And I'm sure that, for those that did see it coming, they were never within small arms range of the shooter that killed them. Even in the tank battles, the Americans just picked off the Iraqis from outside the standoff range.
The movie Jarhead is interesting. It's about a Marine sniper in Desert Storm - an extremely skilled rifleman with specialized weapons. He never gets to make a shot. He gets one opportunity, but an air strike destroys his target first.
Small arms only played a role in the urban combat of major cites. And they were never decisive in a battle. The only reason small arms had any influence is because the Americans went to great lengths to limit civilian casualties. In a revolution, the rouge government isn't going to much care about civilian casualties.
It doesn't matter how many rifles you have. It doesn't matter if you have the kit to modify them to full auto. It doesn't matter how good a shot you are. It doesn't matter if you've managed to get your hands on some grenades, C4, or dynamite.
If you want to play violent revolution, you are going to lose.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 26, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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Paul, my money is that the odds of being gored by a bison in YNP are higher than the lightning strike odds. No proof or stats, just an observation of a close neighbor to Jellystone for a couple of decades:-)
How many gorings and/or stories of them will prompt unknowing visitors to NOW pack a loaded gun?
edit: getting struck by lightning is not all that uncommon, and is frequently used as an "old wives tale" when discussing odds of incident...
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 26, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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In military training, during a lightning storm it is standard practice to lay down weapons and move away from them.
I remember an incident at Fort Bragg where more than 20 soldiers were struck by the same lightning bolt.
Perhaps lightning is trying to prove that it is more powerful than the guns...
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 26, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
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I don't expect everyone to go through every post in this thread, but much earlier I posted stats that show that homicide as a cause of death is orders of magnitude more likely than lighting.
Paul then did the old liberal trick of "let's change what we're discussing to make it look like I'm right" by, for example, focusing exclusively on Yosemite, when that has no specific relevance to the discussion, which pertains to all Nat'l Parks. It is also irrelevant whether the homicide is caused by gun: the issue here is whether law abiding citizens can possess guns for defense, not gun use by criminals (who will not be affected by the law anyway, giving the criminals don't follow the law by definition).
It may be that getting struck by lightning isn't all that uncommon, but it's a hell of lot less common than getting shot, stabbed, beaten, suffocated, what-have-you by your fellow man. Whether this is specifically true in National Parks, I don't know, but Paul doesn't either. And he's the guy who said people who want guns for self-defense are out of touch with reality, so you would think he would have some evidence to support that his notion of reality is more accurate than anyone else's.
Edit--to put in some numbers, about 90 deaths per year from lightning, 15,000 by homicide. So maybe Paul is right if cause of death from lightning compared to homicide is several hundred times more likely in a NP compared to country as a whole. I admit that is possible. What got my goat is Paul making his contentions while having absolutely no idea whether he's right or not (as he admitted in a previous post), while at the same time claiming that people who may suspect otherwise are out of touch with reality.
http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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This whole discussion is about the need for weapons in national parks, or whether or not it is appropriate that weapons specifically guns be carried in national parks. My argument was that they aren't necessary in the lower 48 particularly in Yosemite. It's not my problem if you're arguing something else.
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Swami Jr.
Trad climber
Bath, NY
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
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what are we arguing about here?
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Madbolter
Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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paul roehl
Feb 26, 2010 - 10:50am PT
What I said was that the CHANCE of being shot by someone in Yosemite National Park WITH A GUN is less than being struck by lightening. Ok, then WTF are you worried about then? You're all worked up over this new law but then state that your main fear is not even a statistical danger. Make up your mind. Haha.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 26, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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CHANCE of being shot by someone in Yosemite National Park WITH A GUN
I was wondering why he referred to "WITH A GUN" (and especially why in all caps). Relevant to this conversation, it's pretty hard to see how you're going to get shot by someone WITHOUT A GUN.
Was anyone talking about getting shot with slingshot or bow-and-arrow?
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 26, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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Madbolter and blah,
You guys know what Paul's question is, and the point behind it.
Sorry, but you get no points for nitpicking the way he phrases it, or answering something completely different.
If you can't provide a direct rebuttal, then we will have to assume you don't have one.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 26, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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what are we arguing about here?
Whether or not we can shoot a burro blocking the road in a National Park.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 26, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
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Actually, Leb, it's more like this with regard to the "majestic" tatanka:
or this:
edit: The YNP bison have been around soooo many people that nothing clears them off the road--except for Cherry Bomb or Cyclone Purple Hornies glas-pax on full rev:-)
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