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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:06am PT
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Jan, Thanks, I like the history of the various Christmas carols as well!
Let me try again, what I wanted to say is on this "dugout" Forum, were all here at the same place and time...(when you read it), sharing are beliefs, like if their was only one service and everyone came all at once!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 10:51am PT
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Oops! Sorry Gobee.
I totally misunderstood you!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:15am PT
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Passion, works for me, kind of directed me all along....
We all make it up as we go along, taking into consideration what we learn along the way. Don't you guys get that? If you re-lie on a master plan, you're not doing your work. Buck up babe, responsibility is beautiful!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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the "highest good" has many dimensions, Werner has put forward the notion that it is the stripped down, polished up core "truth" common to all of the great religions and philosophies... I put "truth" in quotes because I realized I didn't really have a word for what I think Werner is suggesting. If I put "idea" there he'd jump all over me... what he is getting at, if I understand, is something that transcends ideas... so I'll just be vague and put "truth" and hope he doesn't take too many point off for that.
But the "highest good" is a phrase used to explore the conflicts among different types of good. There is the psychological good, sort of what Karl talks about. There is the good of doing what you have to do, your duty. And there is the good of "living well." These sorts of "good" can come into conflict with each other, and how these are to be resolved has been discussed in philosophy for as long as we know. This includes the Catholic Church, which certainly has a role in framing various discussions on the philosophy of life... as do other religions.
Interestingly, at least to me, these "goods" are related to our condition, and the basic problems of dealing with prioritizing human wants and needs. Religions and related philosophies often appeal to a set of absolute standards against which we achieve the correct balance.
In my view of this, mystics explore the realm in which all this takes place... I have my own opinions on where this realm is... but that's not the point here. The point is that to provide authority to those absolute standards, the realm in which they are created and exist must be real. That realm is very different from the normal, everyday physical reality, though they are constructed so that they exist together. The mystics are the explorers of that realm.
The definition is the inverse of Dennett's statement on consciousness. For the mystic, if it is not mysterious, than it is not mystical... so once you demystify it it exits from their domain of interest.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
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Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,
but the Lord weighs the heart.
To do righteousness and justice
is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15, Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Proverbs 21:30, No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel
can avail against the Lord.
Exodus 7:8-13, Then the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Prove yourselves by working a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and cast it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.’” So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
Leviticus 11:44, For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy.
Hebrews 7:21-22, “The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”
This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Jesus is the Holy of Holy's, the way to the Father, to be in His Presence, the all access pass if you will.
The King of Kings and Lord of Lords
Romans 8:1, There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
"and to the farthest limit he searches out the rock in gloom and deep shadow... forgotten by the foot; they hang and swing to and fro far from men..."
I thought of El Cap!
*<((:-)
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jstan
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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"In the West where religious authority has been centralized, religious people have always distrusted
mystics for the very reason that they do rely foremost on their own experiential authority, just as
artists and musicians do. That's also why mystics have worked out a system for themselves, of
spiritual directors who are more experienced and know the pitfalls of experiential referencing."
Very very good.
Now we have heard testimony in this thread from persons who have had personal experiences that
led them to god.
Are they mystics?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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Just about everybody has had some mystical experience. Some might not have identified it as such, and others sort of forget about it in the face of not being able to make sense of it, talk about it, or digest it.
Mystics are those who, by natural ability, contemplation, meditation, plant medicines, or some other discipline or means, reproduce mystical experiences and deepen their ability of non-ordinary perception in their lives.
Peace
Karl
Note: Nice post Ed. It should be noted that, because of interconnectedness, these realms affect each other. If we take out our inner trash, all of a sudden, the world treats us better and we feel like treating the world better, we feel like we "need" less, and those around us benefit.
Alternately, (karma yoga) some folks take out their inner trash by service to humanity. It can tone down the attachment to ego and reinforce Love if done with the right awareness
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 21, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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The mystic finds delight in the mystery, the mysterium tremendum et fascinans. Humanity finds comfort in the sublime experience of the imagined unknowable, the implication of a creator, a father, most of all a caretaker of generous proportions assuring the rightness of existence... all gods, and there are thousands, born from the mind of man to placate our anxieties.
But these imaginings are a fools paradise, because what is, is. It is undeniable that we live in a universe predicated on unimaginable violence, that life itself is nothing if not the perpetrator of a required, grotesque violence simply for the sake of survival.
Consider the implication for the chicken population upon the birth of one human being. What kind of a god would create a world in which life must feed upon life to survive? This is perhaps an "unpalatable" mystery?
God's universe is filled with what any reasonable thinker would call detestable elements.
The courageous confrontation is with the reality that the closest thing to a god in this existential nightmare we find ourselves may very well be us! Certainly we could do a better job.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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I'm definitely not a mystic, I'm big rascal .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 21, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
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I've experienced things I cannot explain, but beyond a bit of speculation I leave it at that and don't attempt to conjure up answers and absolutes to fill that void. It's o.k. to not have answers to everything.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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Judging from the postings here on Supertopo, I wonder if ya'll would want to live in some kind of sanitized world with no pain, danger or sharp edges.
Maybe so, but I'm not sure
This is just one planet. We really don't know. We could be lab rats in some alien genetics experiment, like animals in a zoo...or this planet could be like hard knocks reform school for wayward souls.
Either way, personally, I see a rhyme, reason and lessons behind the negative things that happen to me and lately it's been a lot!
You can't know other's lives inside and out. Look at your own life and see if you the events reflect upon you in some synchronistic way
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 21, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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You know, the forum is currently at 983,530 total posts. We're never going to make it to 1,000,000 by December 31st if you religious/political/conspiracy theory posters don't pick it up a little. Let's get with the program, eh?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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Yessur.
For me this whole discussion is out there somewhere, floating and ill-defined. What does the
dictionary say about "consciousness." Wiki says mysticism "elevates the consciousness" so maybe
we need to know what the word means.
Consciousness:
a. the quality or state of being aware, especially, of something within oneself.
b. the state or fact of being aware of an external object, state, or fact
etc.
Well now we don't get much help there either. We need a list of "somethings" to look at. Maybe
one of those somethings might be that there is a tremendous presence covering the entire sky
that is solely devoted to phyically or emotionally protecting me. Or that I have the sensation of
flying with perfect vision through the night sky.
Nope. Ain't done either.
I like my definition.
Consciousness is the expectation or perception that the present moment will be followed by another moment.
Gobee, could you please keep your little bits on the page? Thanks.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 05:42pm PT
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Yah, that Werner is a trouble maker! lol
I'm just a sinner saved
Thank You, Jesus!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 21, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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How can gods and mysticism co-exist? If there are gods to whom everything is attributable, then what constitutes 'mysticism'?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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Dr. F writes
These so called "mystical" experiences are just a state of mind
Perhaps you shouldn't underestimate the mind. How would you know if there is an experience of youself beyond the mind? You're just typing.....
easily explained by modern psychologists
Because you type it so.
They do not prove that there is a God, that you are talking to God or that you are experiencing a mystical experience
Its called a state of Transcendence, and every one has them
There's no proving anything bro. You can't absolutely prove that you're not just dreaming. The only input you have of your own experience is through your own consciousness. Prove anything!
Bottom line, somebody made you go to Sunday school or otherwise inflicted some irrational religious judgements on you and you have a battle with this stuff. Throw the baby out with the bathwater if you wish, reality will be the same regardless of what you believe
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 21, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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...reality will be the same regardless of what you believe.
Sounds like the best argument I've heard so far against gods and supreme authorities...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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It's not an argument against anything. They, or it, exists or it doesn't.
It's another question what use or harm they, or it, can mean to you.
obviously plenty of disagreement about it here
How can gods and mysticism co-exist? If there are gods to whom everything is attributable, then what constitutes 'mysticism'?
Mysticism is just the practice of developing and utilizing perception beyond the physical senses.
The Role of God or Gods is open to debate.
Note: Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) believe in one God, (although Christianity may run into trouble with Trinity doctrine depending on how you read it) Also, Catholicism believes in praying to Saints and such.
Other religions, such as Hinduism, seem to believe in many Gods, although if pressed, most Hindus will admit that there is only one Ultimate God and that the various forms of God are just manifestations of the One Great Being. (sort of like Trinity doctrine)
Somewhere down the line, many doctrines believe in ascended masters, angels, and so on, which seem to have their own power, but again, if pressed, subscribers might admit those powers are on loan from the Divine.
Mysticism may or may not have any relationship to any of this stuff above. Some have used it to communication on levels outside of ordinary perception, but for some, it's just a means of accelerating the evolution of our Souls. SPirit exercise
You want you body to climb 5.13, you do some discipline and develop that, You want peace of mind and control over the storm inside our brains, that's another discipline. Then you learn something from whatever you find, without prejudging what that will be if you are a wise person
peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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"Sounds like the best argument I've heard so far against gods and supreme authorities..."
Or for!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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There's only one God and only one Supreme authority and they are one and the same.
Supreme, you do know what that means?
This has been rascal post number 2
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