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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 20, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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I think you missed the point of my post, Karl...
it is not about the answers to these questions.
... I believe what you are saying: follow what you feel to be true and ask for no more than that. Essentially you are saying the authority to determine truth rests with each individual's experience, that there is no other authority, nor is one needed.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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No he's not saying that.
You are describing relative authority.
Relative authority is already there.
And that's all there is, they say.
But why induce to go here and there if one gets in one place everything?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 20, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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so Werner, what is the absolute authority, how do you know?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
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Ed wrote
I believe what you are saying: follow what you feel to be true and ask for no more than that. Essentially you are saying the authority to determine truth rests with each individual's experience, that there is no other authority, nor is one needed.
Let me elaborate a bit.
First, scientists and believers both have to question their own assumptions and beliefs. Our minds have so many ways of fooling us. It's much better to nurture a caring heart and only half-believe anything, than embrace beliefs as if they solved very much. (particularly when those beliefs require judging or killing people to implement)
Also, there are different realms of knowledge, personal/spiritual and material. The scientific method works great for material knowledge and we make use of the increasing body of knowledge in our technology and lifestyle.
Science gives us no "out" though on the meaning of life and how to navigate this earth journey in our meat suit. Lots of teachers, books and beliefs claim to be authorities for us but how are we to know who do believe and how literally? Even if we believed, do we have correct understanding?
Ultimately, there is a spiritual place where this great game is not so easily solved and we have to live and evolve with answers from within that become more clear in time but sometimes at the expense of our previous expectations and beliefs.
And we should even question how important belief is. They are often ideas that come and go in our brains without touching our hearts. You might have to suspect that meditation might be a worthwhile endeavor to give it a chance but real change and experience don't come directly from beliefs. Most of us believed in Santa because some authority told us. We tell our kids other lies from our positions of authority based on their pleasure or own good. Sometime they misinterpret what we say. Can we prove that God wouldn't do so as well?
We want the comfort of having the answers. Not so easy, not so fast. Let's admit that there is a personal spiritual level of things that we all live in whether we choose to think about it or not. You can drop the word "spiritual" but we all live within ourselves. We have to deal with that or suffer from not dealing with it (not from God's punishment, but from our own twisted self-identity)
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 20, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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but you are saying, in brief, that the authority comes from within, "that which touches our heart"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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I don't mention authority because at a certain personal level...there isn't any!
Or even if there is, we can't absolutely know to trust it.
Imagine a 13 year old kid trying to figure out his goals, priorities and how to live.
Can he really trust his dad (who undoubtedly has his own strengths and weaknesses)? Mom?
How about the Bible? Should he go with the part about Loving his enemy or how to treat his slaves?
What's science say to the Kid? If he's unhappy, he'll get a prescription for depression meds that might have a side effect of suicidal tendencies.
We have to grow and evolve within our own process and no authority will solve it for us. They may guide us if we use their guidance with what wisdom we have. Do we really have to know for sure?
We grow up in time but there's always more. We are always faced with the eternal question of "who/what are we? and the evolving answers that come to us in that exploration. We can take subjective and objective data into account along with intuition, logic, and introspection.
That said, if a person prays to God for guidance and somehow, somewhere, I think they will get help if they are open to it. Somehow, it works. They better also pray that they won't add their own assumptions and prejudice to the answers they somehow get.
I'm not a big fan of authority. Werner mentions it a lot but I believe he still has to come to terms with the issues of how he interprets and acts of the authority he is willing to acknowledge.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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I've said this many times that God is the Supreme Absolute Authority.
For the materialist the absolute authority is death, the desolation of the material body. This is an absolute fact.
One is kicked out of their body at the end of x amount of breaths which can be extended or shortened according to ones actions.
authority comes from within
It also comes from without. Other wise the material creation would be considered false. But it is not false, it is temporary.
In all cases authority is true.
The master in his own house is the final authority for the dog.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 20, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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You've also said that authority comes from scripture, which begs the question, which scripture? But then we repeat ourselves.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 20, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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There are no ultimate answers. That's why we keep working on it.
good thing!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 20, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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"There are no ultimate answers. That's why we keep working on it."
It is always now, and God loves us!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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GoBee writes
God loves us!
I believe it.
I notice that I don't mind the smell of my own farts either!
;-)
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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There are no ultimate answers.
That is an ultimate answer and contradicts.
The conception of God and the conception of Absolute Truth are not on the same level.
The conception of God indicates the controller, whereas the conception of the Absolute Truth indicates the summum bonum or the ultimate source of all energies.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 20, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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There is a great gap between science and theology in that science attempts to find truth whatever it may be, good bad or indifferent: science seeks to discover what and how things are.
Theology seeks only a reconciliation to our existence, as in do not be afraid god loves you.
This attempt at reconciliation often places the reality that science searches for on the Procrustean bed of theological, mythological and religious need, as in the world is only five thousand years old.
God could settle the mystery of his existence in a second if he chose to. In choosing mystery over clear and honest revelation god himself seems to relish in the anxiety of his creation. How very strange.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 20, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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Philippians 2:5-11, Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Birth of Jesus Foretold
Luke 1:26-38, In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For nothing will be impossible with God.” And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
Thru the Bible - Sunday Sermon - Dr. J. Vernon McGee
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_sunday_sermon/Archives.asp
*<((:-)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 20, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
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interesting that you would use the term summum bonum Werner, in particular, it forces a choice among many competing goods. One has to define the "highest good"... among many goods... how do you do that? how do you know which good is highest?
It is your choice in the end, but you state God has the ultimate authority. How is authority of god established and utilized?
Authority is usually referred to as the definitive reference... the opinion which is taken to be correct. Because many believe they have access to this definitive reference, but that each may have a different understanding of the reference, it is difficult to unfold, at least for me, what is actually part of the reference, and what is part of the interpretation of the reference.
Augustine had his opinions about this, but many here would probably disagree with him.
When you say "greatest" you are being relative... yet you say it as if it were absolute.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 20, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dec 20, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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This is how we celebrate around my house ;-)
Paul, ...science attempts to find truth...
Liked what you had to say, but "truth" may not be the right word - possible explainations to questions regarding observed phenomena, maybe.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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As I have told you before, there are three kinds of modes of material nature.
One is goodness, one is passion, and one is ignorance.
So ignorance is the lowest quality.
Passion is still better than ignorance.
And goodness is the highest good quality within this material world but still not perfect.
Thus one has to transcend even goodness to come to the stage of pure goodness.
Gold (example)
Gold retains it's value in the hand of Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc etc even atheist, equally.... (crude example)
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MH2
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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So who is the authority, and who decides, and how do we know it?
Well, J. Goldberg is an authority on vestibular neurophysiology because he has studied it well, published in respected journals refereed by combative peers, and his results appear in basic texts on physiology.
Robert P. George is an authority on something completely different. We know he is because he, too, is respected by critical thinkers for his work.
There are many authorities and you might arrange them in a kind of hierarchy, but first ask yourself what you are truly interested in, what you want to know, and what potential significance it has for you.
Robert P. George says:
"I just hope I am right. If they are going to buy my arguments, I don’t want to mislead the whole church.”
J. Goldberg doesn't have that sort of worry.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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Thanks Ed!
I would agree with Karl that mystical understanding is different than the attempt to find the "natural reason" that some religions have pursued. Reason whether applied to science or religion is a left brain function, while mysticism is right brain.
In the West where religious authority has been centralized, religious people have always distrusted mystics for the very reason that they do rely foremost on their own experiential authority, just as artists and musicians do. That's also why mystics have worked out a system for themselves, of spiritual directors who are more experienced and know the pitfalls of experiential referencing.
The mystics would like to think that someday a new spiritual understanding can be forged between scientists and mystics - that the interior micro cosmic universe mirrors the complexities of macrocosmic multiple dimensions and black holes etc. Perhaps it is just a dream. From the Middle Ages forward however, the mystics and the scientists have stood on the same side against centralized religious authority.
Meanwhile, the mystics are developing a kind of blue print for the types of consciousness that one experiences as one progresses along the path. These experientially based guides have long existed in Asian traditions but are new to the West. The Western versions also have the advantage of being able to utilize Western psychology.
Currently mystics are attempting to come up with a unified theory of stages, in which the discoveries of both Eastern and Asian mystics and at least four different religions, East and West, can be incorporated. Neuro physiologists are also busy measuring the differences in terms of electrical activity in the brain.
Science so far has developed much better protocols for evaluating its intuitions than mystics have, but thanks to the growing popularity of meditation in the West and the scientific training of the mysticists, we are headed more in the scientist's direction.
Now as in the Middle Ages, the biggest threat to open inquiry of any kind comes from the religious people who are certain that truth exists at only one level in their approved scriptures and that it's already been discovered and merely needs to be repeated and conformed to at the dictates of some sort of authority.
The unanswered question in my mind is how many people who are still participating in some kind of traditional religion are ready to move in a more scientific, universal and mystical direction, and how many are still mired in literalist world view.
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