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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Dec 19, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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Bronwyn- "St. Francis ROCKS!"
Awesome post!
St. Francis of Assisi was only 44yrs. old when he died.
My mother named me after him and the Apostle John! Wish I had more in common than their first names(although I do love animals).
St. Francis ROCKS-ON!!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 04:17am PT
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neebee-
About the military chapels, I'm not sure it was kindness so much as common sense and a desire to use the taxpayer's dollars wisely. This also goes along with their method of selecting chaplains according to the percentage of people of that faith in the military. Mostly they are mainstream but I met a Christian Science chaplain once.
The leaders of some congregations like Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist have lay leaders because their training institutions don't meet all the bureaucratic requirements for chaplain accreditation. The Buddhists however are working on that and soon there will be Buddhist chaplains.
As a result, I have been asked, as a teacher of comparative religions, to give talks on Buddhism to the Jewish and Christian chaplains and I've been truely amazed at their ignorance of other religions. One of the more common comments I got was "We didn't know that it was a real religion". When I asked what they thought it was, the most common reply was "some kind of devil worshipping cult". Needless to say, there is a lot of work to be done on interfaith understanding still.
And of course for those people who can't deal with the enforced tolerance and ecumenism on base, there are a whole lot of off base churches operated by missionary groups who still preach exclusivity. Evolution, including the evolution of social and cultural behavior works slowly.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2009 - 06:25am PT
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Dr. Wernher von Braun, the father of our space program with NASA, wrote the following letter to the California State board of Education on September 14, 1972.
Dear Mr. Grose: In response to your inquiry about my personal views concerning the "Case for DESIGN" as a viable scientific theory or the origin of the universe, life and man, I am pleased to make the following observations.
For me, the idea of a creation is not conceivable without evoking the necessity of design. One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an ordered, structured plan or design. We can see the will of the species to live and propagate. And we are humbled by the powerful forces at work on a galactic scale, and the purposeful orderliness of nature that endows a tiny and ungainly seed with the ability to develop into a beautiful flower. The better we understand the intricacies of the universe and all harbors, the more reason we have found to marvel at the inherent design upon which it is based.
While the admission of a design for the universe ultimately raises the question of a Designer (a subject outside of science), the scientific method does not allow us to exclude data which lead to the conclusion that the universe, life and man are based on design. To be forced to believe only one conclusion-that everything in the universe happened by chance-would violate the very objectivity of science itself.
Certainly there are those who argue that the universe evolved out of a random process, but what random process could produce the brain of a man or the system or the human eye?
Some people say that science has been unable to prove the existence of a Designer. They admit that many of the miracles in the world around us are hard to understand, and they do not deny that the universe, as modern science sees it, is indeed a far more wondrous thing than the creation medieval man could perceive. But they still maintain that since science has provided us with so many answers the day will soon arrive when we will be able to understand even the creation of the fundamental laws of nature without a Divine intent. They challenge science to prove the existence of God. But must we really light a candle to see the sun?
Many men who are intelligent and of good faith say they cannot visualize a Designer. Well, can a physicist visualize an electron? The electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known through its effects that we use it to illuminate our cities, guide our airlines through the night skies and take the most accurate measurements. What strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer on the ground that they cannot con- ceive Him? I am afraid that, although they really do not understand the electron either, they are ready to accept it because they managed to produce a rather clumsy mechanical model of it borrowed from rather limited experience in other fields, but they would not know how to begin building a model of God.
I have discussed the aspect of a Designer at some length because it might be that the primary resistance to acknowl- edging the "Case for Design" as a viable scientific alternative to the current "Case for Chance" lies in the inconceiv- ability, in some scientists' minds, of a Designer. The inconceivability of some ultimate issue (which will always lie outside scientific resolution) should not be allowed to rule out any theory that explains the interrelationship of observed data and is useful for prediction.
We in NASA were often asked what the real reason was for the amazing string of successes we had with our Apollo flights to the Moon. I think the only honest answer we could give was that we tried to never overlook anything. It is in that same sense of scientific honesty that I endorse the presentation of alternative theories for the origin of the uni- verse, life and man in the science classroom. It would be an error to overlook the possibility that the universe was planned rather than happened by chance.
With kindest regards.
sincerely,
Wernher von Braun
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2009 - 06:27am PT
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"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)
Now that we know what the definition of faith is, let's propose a question and look at some "evidence" of those "things not seen", at least not by you:
Question: "Why should I believe in Christ’s resurrection?"
Answer: It is a fairly well-established fact that Jesus Christ was publicly executed in Judea in the 1st Century A.D., under Pontius Pilate, by means of crucifixion, at the behest of the Jewish Sanhedrin. The non-Christian historical accounts of Flavius Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Maimonides and even the Jewish Sanhedrin corroborate the early Christian eyewitness accounts of these important historical aspects of the death of Jesus Christ.
As for His resurrection, there are several lines of evidence which make for a compelling case. The late jurisprudential prodigy and international statesman Sir Lionel Luckhoo (of The Guinness Book of World Records fame for his unprecedented 245 consecutive defense murder trial acquittals) epitomized Christian enthusiasm and confidence in the strength of the case for the resurrection when he wrote, “I have spent more than 42 years as a defense trial lawyer appearing in many parts of the world and am still in active practice. I have been fortunate to secure a number of successes in jury trials and I say unequivocally the evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”
The secular community’s response to the same evidence has been predictably apathetic in accordance with their steadfast commitment to methodological naturalism. For those unfamiliar with the term, methodological naturalism is the human endeavor of explaining everything in terms of natural causes and natural causes only. If an alleged historical event defies natural explanation (e.g., a miraculous resurrection), secular scholars generally treat it with overwhelming skepticism, regardless of the evidence, no matter how favorable and compelling it may be.
In our view, such an unwavering allegiance to natural causes regardless of substantive evidence to the contrary is not conducive to an impartial (and therefore adequate) investigation of the evidence. We agree with Dr. Wernher von Braun and numerous others who still believe that forcing a popular philosophical predisposition upon the evidence hinders objectivity. Or in the words of Dr. von Braun, “To be forced to believe only one conclusion… would violate the very objectivity of science itself.”
Having said that, let us now examine the several lines of evidence which favor of the resurrection.
The First Line of Evidence for Christ's resurrection:
To begin with, we have demonstrably sincere eyewitness testimony. Early Christian apologists cited hundreds of eyewitnesses, some of whom documented their own alleged experiences. Many of these eyewitnesses willfully and resolutely endured prolonged torture and death rather than repudiate their testimony. This fact attests to their sincerity, ruling out deception on their part. According to the historical record (The Book of Acts 4:1-17; Pliny’s Letters to Trajan X, 96, etc) most Christians could end their suffering simply by renouncing the faith. Instead, it seems that most opted to endure the suffering and proclaim Christ’s resurrection unto death.
Granted, while martyrdom is remarkable, it is not necessarily compelling. It does not validate a belief so much as it authenticates a believer (by demonstrating his or her sincerity in a tangible way). What makes the earliest Christian martyrs remarkable is that they knew whether or not what they were professing was true. They either saw Jesus Christ alive-and-well after His death or they did not. This is extraordinary. If it was all just a lie, why would so many perpetuate it given their circumstances? Why would they all knowingly cling to such an unprofitable lie in the face of persecution, imprisonment, torture, and death?
While the September 11, 2001, suicide hijackers undoubtedly believed what they professed (as evidenced by their willingness to die for it), they could not and did not know if it was true. They put their faith in traditions passed down to them over many generations. In contrast, the early Christian martyrs were the first generation. Either they saw what they claimed to see, or they did not.
Among the most illustrious of the professed eyewitnesses were the Apostles. They collectively underwent an undeniable change following the alleged post-resurrection appearances of Christ. Immediately following His crucifixion, they hid in fear for their lives. Following the resurrection they took to the streets, boldly proclaiming the resurrection despite intensifying persecution. What accounts for their sudden and dramatic change? It certainly was not financial gain. The Apostles gave up everything they had to preach the resurrection, including their lives.
The Second Line of Evidence for Christ's resurrection:
A second line of evidence concerns the conversion of certain key skeptics, most notably Paul and James. Paul was of his own admission a violent persecutor of the early Church. After what he described as an encounter with the resurrected Christ, Paul underwent an immediate and drastic change from a vicious persecutor of the Church to one of its most prolific and selfless defenders. Like many early Christians, Paul suffered impoverishment, persecution, beatings, imprisonment, and execution for his steadfast commitment to Christ’s resurrection.
James was skeptical, though not as hostile as Paul. A purported post-resurrection encounter with Christ turned him into an inimitable believer, a leader of the Church in Jerusalem. We still have what scholars generally accept to be one of his letters to the early Church. Like Paul, James willingly suffered and died for his testimony, a fact which attests to the sincerity of his belief (see The Book of Acts and Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews XX, ix, 1).
The Third and Fourth Lines of Evidence for Christ's resurrection:
A third line and fourth line of evidence concern enemy attestation to the empty tomb and the fact that faith in the resurrection took root in Jerusalem. Jesus was publicly executed and buried in Jerusalem. It would have been impossible for faith in His resurrection to take root in Jerusalem while His body was still in the tomb where the Sanhedrin could exhume it, put it on public display, and thereby expose the hoax. Instead, the Sanhedrin accused the disciples of stealing the body, apparently in an effort to explain its disappearance (and therefore an empty tomb). How do we explain the fact of the empty tomb? Here are the three most common explanations:
First, the disciples stole the body. If this were the case, they would have known the resurrection was a hoax. They would not therefore have been so willing to suffer and die for it. (See the first line of evidence concerning demonstrably sincere eyewitness testimony.) All of the professed eyewitnesses would have known that they hadn’t really seen Christ and were therefore lying. With so many conspirators, surely someone would have confessed, if not to end his own suffering then at least to end the suffering of his friends and family. The first generation of Christians were absolutely brutalized, especially following the conflagration in Rome in A.D. 64 (a fire which Nero allegedly ordered to make room for the expansion of his palace, but which he blamed on the Christians in Rome in an effort to exculpate himself). As the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus recounted in his Annals of Imperial Rome (published just a generation after the fire):
“Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.” (Annals, XV, 44)
Nero illuminated his garden parties with Christians whom he burnt alive. Surely someone would have confessed the truth under the threat of such terrible pain. The fact is, however, we have no record of any early Christian denouncing the faith to end his suffering. Instead, we have multiple accounts of post-resurrection appearances and hundreds of eyewitnesses willing to suffer and die for it.
If the disciples didn’t steal the body, how else do we explain the empty tomb? Some have suggested that Christ faked His death and later escaped from the tomb. This is patently absurd. According to the eyewitness testimony, Christ was beaten, tortured, lacerated, and stabbed. He suffered internal damage, massive blood loss, asphyxiation, and a spear through His heart. There is no good reason to believe that Jesus Christ (or any other man for that matter) could survive such an ordeal, fake His death, sit in a tomb for three days and nights without medical attention, food or water, remove the massive stone which sealed His tomb, escape undetected (without leaving behind a trail of blood), convince hundreds of eyewitnesses that He was resurrected from the death and in good health, and then disappear without a trace. Such a notion is ridiculous.
The Fifth Line of Evidence for Christ's resurrection:
Finally, a fifth line of evidence concerns a peculiarity of the eyewitness testimony. In all of the major resurrection narratives, women are credited as the first and primary eyewitnesses. This would be an odd invention since in both the ancient Jewish and Roman cultures women were severely disesteemed. Their testimony was regarded as insubstantial and dismissible. Given this fact, it is highly unlikely that any perpetrators of a hoax in 1st Century Judea would elect women to be their primary witnesses. Of all the male disciples who claimed to see Jesus resurrected, if they all were lying and the resurrection was a scam, why did they pick the most ill-perceived, distrusted witnesses they could find?
Dr. William Lane Craig explains, “When you understand the role of women in first-century Jewish society, what's really extraordinary is that this empty tomb story should feature women as the discoverers of the empty tomb in the first place. Women were on a very low rung of the social ladder in first-century Palestine. There are old rabbinical sayings that said, 'Let the words of Law be burned rather than delivered to women' and 'blessed is he whose children are male, but woe to him whose children are female.' Women's testimony was regarded as so worthless that they weren't even allowed to serve as legal witnesses in a Jewish court of Law. In light of this, it's absolutely remarkable that the chief witnesses to the empty tomb are these women... Any later legendary account would have certainly portrayed male disciples as discovering the tomb - Peter or John, for example. The fact that women are the first witnesses to the empty tomb is most plausibly explained by the reality that - like it or not - they were the discoverers of the empty tomb! This shows that the Gospel writers faithfully recorded what happened, even if it was embarrassing. This bespeaks the historicity of this tradition rather than its legendary status." (Dr. William Lane Craig, quoted by Lee Strobel, The Case For Christ, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998, p. 293)
In Summary:
These lines of evidence: the demonstrable sincerity of the eyewitnesses (and in the Apostles’ case, compelling, inexplicable change), the conversion and demonstrable sincerity of key antagonists- and skeptics-turned-martyrs, the fact of the empty tomb, enemy attestation to the empty tomb, the fact that all of this took place in Jerusalem where faith in the resurrection began and thrived, the testimony of the women, the significance of such testimony given the historical context; all of these strongly attest to the historicity of the resurrection. We encourage our readers to thoughtfully consider these evidences. What do they suggest to you? Having pondered them ourselves, we resolutely affirm Sir Lionel’s declaration:
“The evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”
Recommended Resource: The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2009 - 06:42am PT
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Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible
Print this ShareThis
8/22/2003
by Dr. Hugh Ross
Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!
God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance.
The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.
As economy does not permit an explanation of all the Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, what follows in a discussion of a few that exemplify the high degree of specificity, the range of projection, and/or the "supernature" of the predicted events. Readers are encouraged to select others, as well, and to carefully examine their historicity.
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(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 5th power.)*
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(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 5th power.)
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(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 11th power.)
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(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 13th power.)
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(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 15th power.)
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(6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 9th power.)
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(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 18th power.)
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(8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).
This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1 to 20th power.)
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(9) Jeremiah predicted that despite its fertility and despite the accessibility of its water supply, the land of Edom (today a part of Jordan) would become a barren, uninhabited wasteland (Jeremiah 49:15-20; Ezekiel 25:12-14). His description accurately tells the history of that now bleak region.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 5th power.)
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(10) Joshua prophesied that Jericho would be rebuilt by one man. He also said that the man's eldest son would die when the reconstruction began and that his youngest son would die when the work reached completion (Joshua 6:26). About five centuries later this prophecy found its fulfillment in the life and family of a man named Hiel (1 Kings 16:33-34).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 7th power).
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(11) The day of Elijah's supernatural departure from Earth was predicted unanimously—and accurately, according to the eye-witness account—by a group of fifty prophets (2 Kings 2:3-11).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 9th power).
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(12) Jahaziel prophesied that King Jehoshaphat and a tiny band of men would defeat an enormous, well-equipped, well-trained army without even having to fight. Just as predicted, the King and his troops stood looking on as their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man (2 Chronicles 20).
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 8th power).
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(13) One prophet of God (unnamed, but probably Shemiah) said that a future king of Judah, named Josiah, would take the bones of all the occultic priests (priests of the "high places") of Israel's King Jeroboam and burn them on Jeroboam's altar (1 Kings 13:2 and 2 Kings 23:15-18). This event occurred approximately 300 years after it was foretold.
(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10 to 13th power).
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Since these thirteen prophecies cover mostly separate and independent events, the probability of chance occurrence for all thirteen is about 1 in 10138 (138 equals the sum of all the exponents of 10 in the probability estimates above). For the sake of putting the figure into perspective, this probability can be compared to the statistical chance that the second law of thermodynamics will be reversed in a given situation (for example, that a gasoline engine will refrigerate itself during its combustion cycle or that heat will flow from a cold body to a hot body)—that chance = 1 in 1080. Stating it simply, based on these thirteen prophecies alone, the Bible record may be said to be vastly more reliable than the second law of thermodynamics. Each reader should feel free to make his own reasonable estimates of probability for the chance fulfillment of the prophecies cited here. In any case, the probabilities deduced still will be absurdly remote.
Given that the Bible proves so reliable a document, there is every reason to expect that the remaining 500 prophecies, those slated for the "time of the end," also will be fulfilled to the last letter. Who can afford to ignore these coming events, much less miss out on the immeasurable blessings offered to anyone and everyone who submits to the control of the Bible's author, Jesus Christ? Would a reasonable person take lightly God's warning of judgment for those who reject what they know to be true about Jesus Christ and the Bible, or who reject Jesus' claim on their lives?
*The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists. As an example of their method of estimation, consider their calculations for this first prophecy cited:
Since the Messiah's ministry could conceivably begin in any one of about 5000 years, there is, then, one chance in about 5000 that his ministry could begin in 26 A.D.
Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10.
Relative to the second destruction of Jerusalem, this execution has roughly an even chance of occurring before or after that event, that is, one chance in 2.
Hence, the probability of chance fulfillment for this prophecy is 1 in 5000 x 10 x 2, which is 1 in 100,000, or 1 in 10 to 5th power.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 07:29am PT
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Werner Von Braun built rockets for the Nazis which killed many innocent people in England. Hardly a sterling character reference. You'd be better off to quote some other scientist to make your case.
As for Biblical prophesies, what seems so obvious to people who want to believe, is an obscure saying to others. And it's a relatively easy to look back on history and pick and choose known events to fit those obscurities.
I think if you were to investigate with an open mind, you would find the Vedas and Upanishads of India contain at least as many prophesies as the Old Testament and are as accurate in retrospect too.
I know it is very important to some people to believe these scriptures literally but personally I just don't get it. Why can't you just accept Jesus on the merits of His message and then try to live as He described?
Why do you and others feel it necessary to go through such complicated and convoluted interpretations to appreciate His life and message? Why use intricate head games to explain a man who was all heart?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:01am PT
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Because God clearly asks you to look at the evidence so that when someone disputes His word you'll be equipped to defend Him.
Jan, throughout the Bible God uses examples of people that were clearly against, or haters of His word and ultimately transforms them to represent His word. Saul couldn't have been a better example of this. The Bible is a love letter and clearly presents God's case. You know, no matter what I say or what God says, to be more correct, there will always be those that just refuse to let His word into their lives so, God even gives those people a chance to present their case:
"Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob." Isaiah 41:21
Why would anyone put their reputation on the line by asking them to do this if what they say isn't true? Think about that! If there is a loop-hole in God's word then someone is going to try to find it, but they won't. But, clearly He is saying, "Produce your cause...". That's pretty bold if you ask me!
And as far as the Indian prophecies you refer to, show me where they are 100% accurate all the time, every time.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:15am PT
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illusion dweller-
Don't you mean Paul/Saul who was a persecutor of Christians before his conversion rather than Peter who was only guilty of being weak and afraid?
Meanwhile, I don't deny the God of Jesus, but it seems to me He presented a new way of looking at God, calling him Abba, Daddy, probably because he had the same problems with the jealous and blood thirsty God of the Old Testament that I and others have.
I will say again, Jesus and His message can stand on its own. He doesn't need any help from the Old Testament or from convoluted prophesies.
As for Indian prophesies, I'm not any more interested in them than the Hebrew versions.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:29am PT
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I stand corrected. I actually meant Saul before he was Paul (I made the change). Those articles that I posted were given to me and I thought they were good articles to defend God's word is all. And just to clarify...it's illusiondweller without the seperation for it's the name of a rock climb in Joshua Tree National Monument California's high desert that I chose as a username many years ago.
Also, God / Jesus / Holy Ghost...they're one in the same.
Jan, if it turns out that there is a heaven and a hell, then I hope that you won't be going to the latter because eternity isn't a long time, and is isn't a very long time, it's FOREVER! God forbid!
Praying for you.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 19, 2009 - 09:04am PT
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Stating it simply, based on these thirteen prophecies alone, the Bible record may be said to be vastly more reliable than the second law of thermodynamics.
Thank you for stating it so simply.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 19, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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Jan wrote
I know it is very important to some people to believe these scriptures literally but personally I just don't get it. Why can't you just accept Jesus on the merits of His message and then try to live as He described?
Why do you and others feel it necessary to go through such complicated and convoluted interpretations to appreciate His life and message? Why use intricate head games to explain a man who was all heart?
I'm with Jan here. Quit the idolotry of the book. Jesus interpreted it rather liberally himself and often seemed to contradict its literal teaching.
In the new testament there's plenty of bending apparent prophecies that they appear to be fulfilled or bending events to meet the prophesies.
The two gospels renditions of the birth of Jesus are no reconcilable and some of their explanations have no basis in common sense or history. Did they go to Egypt or Nazareth afterwards?
(Imagine Obama establishing a tax that required everybody return (even with cars) to their ancestral homeland of many generations ago. Why? Where would people go? No record of any such thing ever in the ancient world.
Looking back at the prophesies used to establish the old testament credentials of Jesus, it's clear if you read them that they referred to something else entirely, (like Israel)
I mean Jesus predicted the coming of the kingdom of God and said it would come to pass during the generation of the people he was speaking to. I have to count that as a prediction that didn't come true.
There are 5000 existing manuscripts of the Bible, Not one of them is identical to even one other. Some major stories (like the almost stoning of the woman for adultery) weren't even included in the bible until after the year 1200.
But why quibble? I just suggest you don't make a God out of a book. Jesus didn't
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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illusiondweller-
The world suffers from tens of thousands of rapists, murderers, and hideous torturers, not to mention the liars and cheats, but you have to pray for me because I'm in danger of going to hell for not interpreting the Bible like you do?
That's a little out of proportion don't you think?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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Jan, I'm sure your better then most of us, I know I'm a sinner and need forgiveness myself, but it's not that God keeps an account that with more checks in the good column your in? God still has forgiveness left for everyone even after forgiving me!
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
Romans 4:21-31, But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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Gobee:
I think what Jan is saying is that god would be more pleased were you to apply your prayers to
people in desperate immediate need. Your interpretation of the bible is your interpretation and
there is a real possibility your interpretation is not god's. If so your prayers for Jan are wasted.
There is no question those other people need help.
It is simply a matter of getting the most good out of your prayers.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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Rom.3:23 (KJV)
"[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
John.8:7 (KJV)
"[7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
No need to be casting stones at one another, because it can certainly be thrown back many fold. Every believer is at a different place in their walk with GOD. Some are far down the road, others are just starting. The fact that we all have faith in GOD and his Son and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ should be sufficient for getting along and talking it out without judgement. Lord knows we will not agree on all doctrine or the value of GOD's Holy Word.
We need to be patient with one another with love and humility. Remember, the first shall be last, and the last shall be first among us.
Regarding Werner Von Braun, he was a Nazi. We brought him over in Operation Paperclip. In his later years it does seem that he had a change of heart. Even GOD can save the worst among us if we truly repent. I would like to think that he did and his faith was sincere. The book, Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA, goes into this in great detail.
It was Werner who warned us what the power elite would do some day . . .
"Just before he [von Braun] died, he gave an interview to Carol Rosin, in which he basically said that in order to sustain the military-industrial complex that first a false threat of terrorists would be created and used on the public and then asteroids and finally a false alien threat."
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/cosmicdeception04apr03.shtml
"As immense as that game is, there is a bigger one: Control through fear. As Werner Von Braun related to Dr. Carol Rosin, his spokesperson for the last 4 years of his life, a maniacal machine - the military, industrial, intelligence, laboratory complex - would go from Cold War, to Rogue Nations, to Global Terrorism (the stage we find ourselves at today) to the ultimate trump card: A hoaxed threat from space.
To justify eventually spending trillions of dollars on space weapons, the world would be deceived about a threat from outer space, thus uniting the world in fear, in militarism and in war.
Since 1992 I have seen this script unveiled to me by at least a dozen well-placed insiders. Of course, initially I laughed, thinking this just too absurd and far-fetched. Dr. Rosin gave her testimony to the Disclosure Project before 9/11. And yet others told me explicitly that things that looked like UFOs, but that are built and under the control of deeply secretive 'black' projects, were being used to simulate - hoax - ET-appearing events, including some abductions and cattle mutilations, to sow the early seeds of cultural fear regarding life in outer space. And that at some point after global terrorism, events would unfold that would utilize the now-revealed Alien Reproduction Vehicles (ARVs, or reversed-engineered UFOs made by humans by studying actual ET craft - see the book 'Disclosure' by the same author) to hoax an attack on Earth."
--Dr. Steven Greer
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Dec 19, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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Get this and TR's song thread off my Climbing website. I'm gonna go cook dinner and dream of sunny Granite moderates.....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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Klimmer-
This is your first conspiracy theory that has made any sense to me at all. I think however that alternative explanations are possible. In any case, eventually we will know.
Personally, I have maintained for years that the U.S. Air Force was testing saucer like machines on the secret. When the stealth bomber came out and photos of it from the front were published it was obvious that some of the saucer sightings were that. Now we read that similarly designed predator drones exist so that accounts for more. The significance of Roswell seems pretty clear too, as it is the turnaround point on a direct flight path out of Edwards Air Force Base in southern California where most aircraft are tested.
As for black ops, I wouldn't be surprised if we weren't designing saucer like devices to wage psychological war on somebody some day. I also wouldn't put it past some of our Air Force and psyops folks to make alien dummies to put in some of these machines to try to scare people away from them if they crash and also just for the fun of it.
We have special elite units who make a practice of sneaking into various government installations just to test their ongoing security, and they also like to leave signature calling cards behind as jokes. We have other units who practice by doing strange things and telling people tall tales just to test what they can get away with and how people react psychologically. Whole other groups of our people are trained in how to hypnotize the unwary.
Before we have to worry about a great saucer hoax being launched on us however, our treasury will first be drained by the costs of replacing all the equipment destroyed in the past ten years of warfare. And since terrorism isn't going away any time soon, I think that will keep our military in business beyond our own lifetimes.
Anyway, we will see.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 19, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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illusiondweller-
I find it really sad that on this website, Christian history is repeated once again. Instead of focussing on the very real evil in this world, Christians once again waste their time pointing out perceived errors in other's interpretations of dogma and then try to scare them with threats of hell.
I personally believe that praying that someone will come to agree with your own religious interpretations is a form of blasphemy. If you really believe that we are created with free will, don't you think it's an infringement on that free will to try to force someone else's beliefs to agree with your own, with prayer or other means?
Doesn't the Bible say God is the one who will judge us?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Dec 20, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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"Doesn't the Bible say God is the one who will judge us?"
That's why we need Jesus!
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jstan
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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When you read the words in a book and you decide how another person shall conduct their lives
you are playing god.
Jan has used the correct word.
Blasphemy.
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