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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Nov 21, 2017 - 03:31pm PT
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I think we humans do value human labor, immensely. I mean, look at the price of a fine house hand built by craftspersons; we value it enormously. The price tags reflect that value.
And what, one-tenth of one percent of the population lives in a fine house hand built by crafts person?
When robots take over the current jobs, there might (and I"m not even convinced of this) be jobs that either take human imagination or jobs that could be done better by robot but at least some people, some of the time, prefer to be done by humans. A live musical with human actors.
But I don't see why we should think there will be enough of these jobs to go around and if the supply of people wanting to do these jobs way outstrip the demand, they won't pay anything.
Good social policy could make a big difference. I don't see any reason that this country is suddenly going to get its political act together to generate good social policy.
My $0.02 worth...
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
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Has anyone heard of a better idea than a baseline income for all as a way to deal with increasing automation and job scarcity?
A few key questions:
1. Who actually does pay for it?
2. Will it kill off motivation and remove all human-based sources of skill?
#1
In principle, the payers should be those who own everything as a result of automation-accelerated wealth consolidation. In practice, this will be difficult because different countries will adopt rules at different times, and companies and rich people will shift around their assets to avoid taxation. Even if they only get away with it for a few years, countries will be desperate for revenue and might fail before they can crack down. Or, they get so desperate they cut deals with more tax loopholes to attract the tax payers back... then it's a race to the bottom with every country bowing down to the rich folks to give them the cheapest rates, and people across the world suffer.
I don't see a clear solution, other than national governments asserting their authority now while they still can. In a few years, private entities will have more bargaining power vs governments and the governments won't be in a position to make demands. Right now corporations are favored because of bribery and human weakness among governing agencies. In the future it will be just the raw power of the corporations to outlast governments, regardless of whether or not our governments have greedy/weak individuals.
For individuals, the only hope will be to not depend on the government or any hand-outs. Will gardening skills and self-sufficiency be enough with roaming bands of militias/thugs and no government money to pay for law enforcement? Maybe "Water World" style floating fortress is a good idea, trying to hide in the vast expanse of the seas.
#2
In principle, working people will still be in demand for things that are not performed better/cheaper by machines. Supply/demand will create an incentive for a select group of ambitious and talented people. In other endeavors, it's probably better to have people doing things when they feel a passion for it rather than going through the motions doing a mediocre job to collect a paycheck as they do today.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Nov 21, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
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In Alaska, citizens of the state receive a portion of proceeds on oil.
Perhaps that's a place to start. Instead of awarding contracts to private companies to extract minerals in the country, cut timber, reroute water, and such, for their own use and profit, maybe a portion of what is used gets paid out across the board to every citizen.
I am sure not smart enough to understand this level of economics, and neither are the majority of us, but it seems to me that there are definitely those who have their fingers on the scale when it comes to weighing out what's fair. Those people tend to have connections with those that decide various components to our laws. Maybe that connection needs to be put in check, if not outright severed.
And maybe certain high level positions ought to actually be committees instead of one person. A sort of mini 3-part government within each of those to do a checks and balances. Maybe citizens, upon reaching the age of majority, would have to serve on these committees, kind of like Israel puts each young adult to serve in the military.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
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I don't see a clear solution,
I already said you people are blind as bats.
You can't see a clear solution because you don't have a real clear clue the purpose of life.
Robot consciousness comes from the clueless brainwashing of gross materialism consciousness.
But you modern people are know it alls with your linear nonsense of advancement of knowledge.
Life doesn't work that way.
That's why you people all think you're machines.
So st00pid, ..... and tough sh!t Ghost,
as you modern people have become sterile machine conscious fools completely asleep at the wheel of life .....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
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In Alaska, citizens of the state receive a portion of proceeds on oil.
That ship is sinking, fast. The oil is quickly running out, the state has been spending like it would last forever and, besides, that piddly check doesn’t go far up there. It’s good for a few benders or yer intardnet service.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Nov 21, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
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Crankster...Turn on the de-coding machine...Another message and clue has been transmitted...rotbrain
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 21, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
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You can't see a clear solution because you don't have a real clear clue the purpose of life.
So, Werner, instead of the above abusive bullsh#t, why don't you contribute something positive? Can _you_ see a clear solution? If so, why don't you talk about it instead of just hurling another "stoopid fools" comment at us?
Same for having a clue about the purpose of life. Why not share with us? Why not make a genuine effort to contribute? Do you actually believe that anyone on Supertopo wants to see another "stoopid americans" post from you?
Nobody does. That shtick got old years ago. Now it's just irritating.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
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Robot consciousness comes from the clueless brainwashing of gross materialism consciousness.
You are clear whiner Ghost who wants everything watered down and distilled to your biased preference.
Just skip my stuff and be done with it as you clearly live in a fixed rut ......
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 21, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
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Don't listen to me Werner. Ask around. See if you can find anyone who thinks your "stoopid American" or "gross materialist" posts provide anything of value on Supertopo.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Nov 21, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
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That ship is sinking, fast. The oil is quickly running out, the state has been spending like it would last forever and, besides, that piddly check doesn’t go far up there. It’s good for a few benders or yer intardnet service.
Oil is not running out in Alaska, there is an abundance of oil in Alaska. The problem with Alaska and the reason that ship has sailed is lower oil prices and easier access to it in other locations.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
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Oil, as it is used in this day and age, is NOT conducive to the survival of mankind.
The consciousness is being raised and that is the real reason it will be phased out eventually.
It's selfish st00pid criminals that try and keep the world dependent on it .....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
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Bat rock, I worked up there. Production started decreasing only about 8 or 10 years after Prudhoe came on line. Kuparuk gave it a little bump but it is now about half of what it was at its peak.
Oops, I'm wrong - it's less than that now:
"The Trans-Alaska Pipeline System (TAPS) is operating at only one-third of its capacity, and there has been a 39 percent decline in the past 10 years. Furthermore, production has dropped 68 percent since hitting a peak of 2 million barrels per day in 1988. It currently produces about 600,000 barrels per day.". Alaska Oil and Gas Association
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
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Reilly.. If they re-pumbed it with smaller pipe the capacity would double...rj
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:26pm PT
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Reilly, production levels have absolutely nothing to do with the amount of obtainable oil in the ground. Multiple massive discoveries in the last 2 years. My buddy is a petro geologist for a big company on the slope. His expert opinion based on his insider knowledge of recent discoveries and a few decades of experience (as opposed to your ignorant assertions that flow forth like liquid poo from my ass after food poisoning at a Vegas buffet) is that there will be oil coming out of the earth in Alaska for at least another 50 years. More depending on the fate of ANWR etc.
As for the Permanant fund- it pays for my heating bill for 12 months, and then some.
We all know you view yourself as a hyper intelligent genius who’s command of every subject is absolute, but please dude.... your di ck is hanging out of your pants while you preach, and we’re all laughing at it right now. Do us a favor and zip up and shut up.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/10/investing/alaska-oil-discovery-repsol-spain/index.html
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:34pm PT
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What is the current kick back for Alaskan's...? Not including the Vegas buffet crude...?
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:39pm PT
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2017-1100
2016-1022
2015-2072
The last couple of years the state has been raiding the earnings from the fund to help pay for services and .gov.
The price of oil tanked (for multiple reasons, maybe Reilly can fill you in on why) and thus the money they get from it tanked.
Stock market has some to do with it.
The earnings from the states investments (via the Fund) are part of what’s divided and dispersed each year.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
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JB, you have no idea.
I have a sled warming up in the bed of the truck as we do the 30 minute drive up to the pass. And I leave my truck running while we do a few quick BRRRAPPski laps. No joke.
And I’m as limp wristed of a liberal as it gets.
You should see what the real ‘necks do around here.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:09pm PT
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F...I totally believe you on that...I remember the block heater outlets in the parking lot in front of University of Fairbanks...
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:15pm PT
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oh no, the little boy had a bad day today?
had some fun with his arrows ^^^, STFU
gets mean girl mad when someone calls him out for his bs, - insulting everyone every day
poor Donald, keep it going, Robert Mueller coming for you.....you won't be around
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
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RJ- Being able to plug into a block heater is 5 star luxury.
The real deal is running your jetboil in contact with your oil pan for 45 minutes while doing jumping jacks when you get back to the trail head after a 16 hour day on some 2500’ north buttress of some choss heap. Just ask Reilly.
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