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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Doug,
you did the route for me? Thanks, but I didn't want it put up in that style. Since you did the route for me, can you please go and remove the rap-placed bolts since that is what I want?
Bruce
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ec
climber
ca
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DMT, your killing me! ROTFLOL...
 ec
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WBraun
climber
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Bob D'
I think you missed Klaus's point totally. Please don't reply to me but to klaus if you do.
Next my blanket question to no one in partcular. Just a devils advocate type question.
What if some guy goes up there and chops the upper bolts and said I did it for you?
:-)
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Bruce,
I didn't say the style was for you,
just the route.
The style is all mine;
I get the karma.
Doug
And Sean: I want to be sure to include him here
but not presume to speak for him.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Similar to the collapse of windsurfing in the early 90's - I'd have no problem whatsoever if the 80-85% of 'climbers' today who are risk-averse and wholly bolt-dependent disappeared from the scene tomorrow. Actually, could we schedule that for around 9:30am tomorrow so I'd have a chance to grab breakfast before heading out?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Klaus...I don't remember seeing Yosemite in the post and highlighted.
So if something is never been done before and then someone does it....does it make it wrong!!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Speaking as an old Smith Rocks guy (mid-70's), once Alan "opened" the door, there was an explosion of rap bolted routes, fixed lines, people dangling for days and weeks on end working out the moves to their latest gymnastic problem, and more giant bolt hangers and pounds of chalk visible than all the pin scars of the previous era. It is not an improvement.
We don't need to wait for anyone to show up and "do better" now on SFHD, all we need to do is sit back and wait a few years for all of the people who can do the same, rap in and build their route. The question isn't even so much, was it ok this once, but is that the future of the SFHD? I wonder what Doug and Sean will think in years to come when they see similar things done up there with their torch that aren't so planned, considered, or established by experienced guys that have "been around".
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe...your elitism is almost beyond belief...I imagine you set wind surfing standards too.
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James
climber
a porch in Chinese Camp
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Virtual fisticuffs! Awesome!
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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It's all the same thing, no new tale to tell...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Thanks, Bob! Nope, didn't set any standards, but the sailing sites in the Gorge on big days are pretty quiet compared to the late 80's boom - and hey, that just plain works for me.
Personally, I think it's a bit of a bummer we won't see a similar collapse in climbing so long as gyms act as commercial engines continuously cranking out a steady product. And 25 years later, the 'inconvenient truth' is the vast majority of those climbers expect, if not demand, [willing and selfless] 'developers' provide them with an relentless stream of novel outdoor emulations of their indoor climbing experience.
These folks now constitute the large majority of climbers, are risk-averse, and it's really not all that outlandish to suggest at the rate drills are going these days that SFHD, the Valley, and many other classic crags might end up under the gun at a much different standard of 'safety' some day sooner than later. As Dingus said, "I'm here to kill you" - pardon me if I don't lay down quietly for the big event.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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I’m not meaning this as an affront to specific individuals. But isn’t this entire debate motivated more by competitive ethos, submerged rivalry and pride rather than conservation ethics or behavior systems and guiding philosophies of singular moral importance to the climbing community?
Bolts are placed on rappel---do they deface the rock more than bolts placed on lead?
Yes, “ground up” will likely provoke a greater sense of adventure in the first ascent team and demand a more challenging construction of route. But what is that to those who follow? Will second and third ascent parties experience a tangible dearth of adventure or is that just an illusion conceived in prior knowledge? Will those parties strive toward their goal with any less conviction?
If 99% of the climbing community should agree that on any large wall, bolts should not be placed on rappel, what sentiment and culpability will be reserved for “offenders” who feel they must resort to the tactic to finish a big route? Will the issue merely regenerate the predictable, age-old , free will vs. social constraints debate? Or will we sling moral indignity at them, assign them Ahab status; ignoring the Rachel captain’s pleas for help, and sailing on in search of that big, nasty whale.
We who are infected with pride commonly display indifference or contempt toward those who are in pain, confusion or need. That lack of compassion can extend to fellow climbers who feel they must digress from common practice to finish their ascent. (And pride is based in rivalry and competitiveness, not confidence or high minded moral principles.)
I’d suggest that rivalry, unfriendliness and ill will “pollute” the climbing environment more than bolts, litter or blaring music.
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Peter
climber
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When I repeat someone else's climb I don't give a hoot how the bolts got on there, as long as there are enough of them to protect my neck. Guess I'll never be a hero - like I care. If Doug and Sean claimed to have done the route ground-up they'd be liars - but they're not. If they had done the route ground-up and placed no pro then I'd shrug and figure another couple of elitist heroes, creating a route they claim to own on rock that doesn't belong to them, that no one else will ever get to climb.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"When I repeat someone else's climb I don't give a hoot how the bolts got on there, as long as there are enough of them to protect my neck."
Yeah, pretty much exactly my point...
Done here I think, night all - it's been one of the more interesting threads in awhile...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe...I ain't buying your grim reaper tales and predictions. The new breed is doing pretty good, Tommy Caldwell, Beth Rodden, Chris Sharma, the Hubers Brothers and host of others who have been seen in the gym and clipping bolts on occasion can and are finding their way.
In fact they are seriously kicking some ass.
Hats off to new breed...they are keeping the dream alive. You saw the future a long time ago and it just scare you.
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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Hello super thread topo people or whatever. I just wanted to toss in a little support for Sean. I am Sean's step brother and have climbed with him since 1987. Sean is someone who puts allot of thought into everything he dose. I think that if rap bolting the top of GROWING UP was the decision Sean made it was a good one. I'm glad that a super proud 1000' bolt ladder is not in place above that great arch. What was done up there just has to be better than pecking around with rivets or something and trying to find the way up. I think that if just a few of you climb the route you will see.
B
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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i've gone around on this a couple of times-
here's where i'm at today (not that it matters to anyone but me)
not really sure i will end up with these exact feelings, FWIW.
if they'd climbed those arches banging in pins the whole way, that'd be ok, the FA's perogative, right? (but of course they didn't). still, they could have done, on aid, whatever the hell they wanted, because their are no limits to what aid guys can do to get where they are going, they just get to do whatever they want, whether or not the terrain they are on can be climbed w/out aid tactics. but to put up a free route, they were bound to an aid climber's ethic, even though that aid climber's ethic would have allowed them to hammer and scar where they didn't (need to) do so.
then, if they'd drilled endless holes on lead to aid up the slab, that'd be ok?
clint suggested that they could have drilled just to patch?
seriously? that's ridiculous.
i would have picked rapping in over drilling up.
which way would the stone have voted?
would we sacrafice the stone for our sense of adventure?
to drill scores of holes for a single passage?
WTF, why?
maybe if they were out to put up an aid route, but who would ever go aid it?
(WoS PoS Jr., just 5 miles uphill of an aproach, and probably the 8th or 9th coolest aid route on the formation at best, so have at it kids!)
what's more, if they'd dirlled up and aided it, everyone would freak out if it were subsequently set up as a free climb (aka retro-bolted).
so instead of establishing an aid climb, they established a free climb.
now i'm not the expert some of the ST crowd seems to be on the history in these parts, can someone give an example of a long, steep, somewhat featureless slab that was drilled all the way up and aided on FA so it could be immediately set up as a bolted free cllimb?
i do find the ethics of the old dads inspiring, but i don't see a huge distinction between drilling on rappel and drilling on hooks. what the heck is so proud about aiding a slab w/ a drill? seriously. BFD. as i read it, shitty pro is often used in such circumstances to manufacture some spiciness, but that is just boldness for its own sake, not because the stone requires the FA to be bold, so in my mind it's purely ego, "check me out, i'm bold, my pro sucks, i made sure of it!".
considering some examples made in this thread:
BY:
could the BY have been left for a climber who didn't need the pro placed from hooks?
did JB even need them? or was that compromise also made so that others would have access to the route?
WoS:
would those guys have possibly taken more grief if they'd rapped in a set up a free route? wha if DR and SJ aided up WoS and set it up as a free climb? f*#king thing hasn't seen sh#t for traffic in 20+ what years? i'd say let's find a way to get some use out of the fact that all those holes were drilled there.
the aid climbers have voted w/ their feet on that one.
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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Matt is speaking my language.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ok, one last go for the evening. The difference is, Bob, that instead of those folks representing a ratio of something like 1:5,000 or 1:10,000 in the mid-70's they now represent a ratio of something more like 1:500,000 (wild ass guessing here, but you get the idea) - they are the peak of a far broader-based pyramid. The 'traffic' and impact each one of them represents is fairly enormous given 80-85% of the base is wholly bolt-dependent now versus barely any in the mid-70s.
And while they perform and accomplish great feats - the raising grades (pure physical difficulty vs. endurance) are fast approaching the same sort of curve experienced on the times for running a mile or doing a 100 meter freestyle - increasingly smaller incremental gains. Having seen that end game played out between computers and humans in chess it simply holds little fascination for me.
And while I'm all for folks pursuing those limits, I'm at least willing to acknowledge the price paid to support today's base population of climbers whose midst such 'stars' emerge from. It is not without a cost. I don't consider it all 'progress'. I find nothing inherently interesting about a grade - any grade - only lines are interesting. And scared? Surely, that must be it...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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healyje,
well said! There seems to be a huge divide who don't seem to care how a route was put up as long as they have routes to climb. On the other side is a group who cares about the style and ethics. It is sad to me that some people don't seem to care about style and ethics and only care about the result.
Not to make this a political thread, but I think a whole lot of problems we are facing in this country are because of the same "the end justifies the means" attitude we see being expressed here. Just look at how the pro-Iraq war crowd are now justifying their invasion of Iraq. Where I am standing it is exactly the same thing.
Bruce
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