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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Everyone here seems to have missed Ed's post a few pages back concerning teaching a worm that is only about 1mm long. It's brain consists of a few thousand neurons.
The experiment involved teaching something to the nematode, and it didn't involve only neurons. It also involved neurotransmitters, proteins and enzymes. The chemistry behind it was quite complex.
As if the brain weren't complex enough.
I've stated that having a physicalist view of the universe does not preclude you from believing in, or against, free will. Some always say that if it is all pure physics, then every particle can have a fully predictive future for 20 billion years in principle. Since we are made of this stuff, our futures and our actions must also be predetermined. This is false, and I will show why.
I've mentioned dynamic non linear systems several times. Nature is filled with them, and some cannot be predicted very well with mathematics, such as turbulence. We CAN model turbulent flow fairly easily, but we cannot predict the future XYZ position of an actual atom passing through turbulent flow.
I see other systems like this all around us in nature, in both the life science and physical sciences, such as weather.
If Ed's nematode paper is a peek into the functioning of the human brain, we must accept that it is not only 20 billion neurons with trillions of connections, it is also the fact that it operates in a soup of neurotransmitters, proteins, enzymes, and hormones, each of which may function with the same degree of complexity as neurons.
Turbulence cannot be mathematically predicted like classical motion or thermodynamics. Not to the level of the individual atom. You can get a good idea of when laminar flow becomes turbulent from the Reynolds number, but it isn't precise. Yep. I remember the Reynolds number from sedimentary depositional environment classes.
We can still model these systems quite well. Even turbulence is modeled. You just can't predict the path of an atom or particle. You can model the aggregate quite well, though.
I think of the mind as a big soup of non linear systems with the limits similar to turbulence. It can be modeled and understood, but it is not an entirely deterministic system. Not by a long shot.
I propose that the complex interplay of a trillion synapses with their complicated chemistry as a sort of turbulent non linear system. If nobody has noticed, our minds do not function like computers, which can be programmed to correctly answer many questions. The mind does not perfectly recall every pixel, every sensory state, or even every thought. It can be shown that it is subjective at its very nature. In that sense we are dumber than our computers. My cellphone can remember phone numbers perfectly, but I can't achieve this small task.
To understand this, you have to understand heuristic short cuts in logic processing. Our minds are filled with these approximations, and it is so subjective that any objective functioning is damn hard.
As digital computers seek to mimic intelligence, heuristic algorithms have been written into their code. It is an obvious idea that IBM used when working on the programming of Watson. It is also used in your anti-virus software. Heuristics are sort of rules of thumbs, or short cuts. Humans rely on heuristics quite a bit. Your calculator doesn't need it at all.
Humans can perform objective tasks, but to accomplish this with our hopelessly subjective minds takes rigorous method involving precise language, both "spoken" language and symbolic language, such as mathematics.
In other fields we can also perform objective tasks, but again, we have to use a rigorous self correcting method.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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I'm afraid of worms.
Been to Nepal.
^^^this is why I always refer to consciousness being produced by our neural/body system. Most folks here, Largo included it seems, get that it's not all about just neurons. They also get that without the neural body system, you've got nothin (OK, Von Braun doesn't, but thas coo).
I don't think the above is salient with regards to the Largo Problem - that of a qualia-less no-mental non-state that will forever continue to defy the probings of science, accessible only through a very specific meditative practice, over decades, and only through the careful guidance of his chosen teacher.
I may have overstated wooist doctrine, but you can add chaos etc all you want to educate the masses with regards to the inherent unpredictability of such systems, but the Largotians will continue to argue that the source of free will remains beyond the reach of instrumentation, now and forever.
At the macro level, we exercise some free will, of course. Once one drills down to the micro levels of the neural/body system's hierarchy, however - it starts to look like a sub-optimization problem with multiple success competing success criteria suffused with some chaos - less free, more micro machine.
That's kind of the way everything works, of course. Zoom in far enough and you've just got a few particles, energy, and a handful of forces (+ outstanding mysteries, of course) doing their thing. It doesn't look at all like a love poem or a flower.
Largo's operating at the perceptual level of poem and flower, sans poem and flower.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Did I just overstate that?
You are the master of overstatement. A good teacher would definately suggest a long silent retreat for you.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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And I'd suggest you mail order a sense of humor, but neither suggestion would bear much fruit, I'd wager.
Best to accept the universe the way it is, no?
Healthy detachment and all that.
I'll teach you, if you're open to it.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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For other's of you who seek patience, might I suggest attempting to build one of these:
http://www.play-asia.com/metallic-nano-puzzle-mitsubishi-a6m-zero-paOS-13-49-en-70-7ao9.html
If you're not completely batshit by the end of it, you pass.
Work up to it by massaging some ants. When one survives uninjured, you're ready to begin.
My sister (who resides in Japan) gifted this thing to me. My close-in vision has long since left the building. She has a deep, extremely subtle cruel streak, I think.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Meanwhile if you're afraid of the worms in Nepal, I'll bet that what you're really talking about is a leech?
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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It remains an open question whether the nature of reality is dependent upon peculiar mental states
= sarcasm. Not literally.
;>)
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WBraun
climber
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Best to accept the universe the way it is, no?
But you YOU don't even do that.
Instead you spend all day guessing, accepting and rejecting what your out of control mind is bubbling up all day.
The intelligent class listens to ones soul to guide and control their mind .....
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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It's funny how this thread has more personal accusations than facts.
Shows someth'in bout the mind...
I jus had 4 days summer vacation with my daughter. Today for lunch we had Thai food. This was my fortune cookie reading;
Life is a tradjety for those who feel, and comedy for those who think.
I thought it was funny!
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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The intelligent class listens to ones soul to guide and control their mind ..... (Duck)
Only if they don't have a poor fund of knowledge.
;>)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^ Is that a typo? Better had reread.
After a few days of clarevoyance, the question of, "What is Truth?" Keeps poppin up. Not only, what is truth, but, what is it to Lie? Is a lie a function of the brain? The brain surely doesn't lie to the lungs, or to the heart,etc. Why would my brain lie to yours?
Mother Nature and evolution surely wouldn't lie to herself? She certainly had to start life upon a stack of Truths. To go from no-thing to the beginnings of life, that had to be built on chemical, electrical, environmental, timing Truths? And to go from plant life to animal life, well do you really think there coulda been some white lies thrown in? I doubt it! Maybe some "Falses", but outright lies? NO WAY! Can you conceive an animal lying? Or even Hating? Anger yes! But NOT hating or lying.. These seem to be two accessories only common in mankind and recorded throughout history. Did they just emerge when we decided to stand up? Maybe writing could be just a consequence of trying to relate the Truth? If you took all the Truths that were bestowed before Humanoids and handed them to Man in his evolutionary accent, what would cause him to outright lie? Doesn't this shine a glimmer of free-will?
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WBraun
climber
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The gross materialists are correct.
They have no free will.
They are in perpetual bondage.
But the intelligent class who seek the Absolute truth choose this path thru their own free will ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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C. elgans has 302 neurons and about 5000 synapses
that was a very interesting article that seemed to have not been of interest to anyone but Base...
the worm has only 302 neurons, so very simple, yet the complexity of the mechanism is pretty astounding.
I was surprised by Jan's post about "fads" since that paper was very recent (like within the last couple of weeks) and connects behavior, learning, memory, genetics, and proteomics as well as associating the phenomena to the physical location of the interactions.
What is more amazing, the same mechanisms have analogs in humans. These machines are durable and useful and have been a part of our genetic heritage. The phylum nematoda is thought to be more than 500 million years old.
http://www.wormatlas.org/neuronalwiring.html
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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ever get the feeling that we're just repeating...
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Tvash: . . . your silly little playground debate tricks.
That's rich. You mean like consistency, validity, relevance, reliability, accuracy, commensurability, honest skepticism, and any other logical or scientific claims that lead to fame?
So you're an artist . . . . What do you have to say about being artistic, rather than an artist? What an artist is, or is not, is probably objective. What is artistic is probably not objective at all. Note the difference.
The problem is, I would think, that people of your persuasion face many unsolvable problems that you can hardly articulate, much less work to final solutions. You ignore the fact that at the end of the day, you cannot say what anything is with any certainty scientifically, although you can say so by the consensus of scientists.
There's a difference, you know.
If you want to play the game of science, then play it all the way to the end of the line. WHAT DO YOU KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT? AND HOW DO YOU KNOW IT?
That is NOT the same as: "what do we want to assume consensually?"
So for me, I'd say it's: "hey, we're just talking here. Nothing important." Ya know?
Base: If Ed's nematode paper is a peek into the functioning of the human brain, we must accept that . . . .
I can't say how many arguments have ended up empty due to those two move: (i) "IF" is a really big word; and (ii) "We Must Accept."
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^jinx you owe me a beer
--------------
^^^ Everytime we go around tough, someth'in's different'
Think it has ANYTHING to do with our relative position in the universe?
How does a Sun consider time with no orbit?
So if everything is moving away from it at the same speed, wouldn't it HAVE to be the center?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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jgill, I'm an idiot...and, nice summary post up-thread. Base wrote
I think of the mind as a big soup of non linear systems with the limits similar to turbulence. It can be modeled and understood, but it is not an entirely deterministic system. Not by a long shot
I don't think most or any of the "scientism-types" on this thread were ever arguing for pure determinism. I think that you're probably right about most of what you wrote in that fine post. But the fact that consciousness likely includes chaotic systems doesn't make free will any more likely, or am I missing something? The problem of free will does not go away at all IMO. The possibility of chaos doesn't make it a free for all out there.
BTW, thanks for the reference awhile back, MH2. That, along with the Dennett/Harris debate on free will is on my list. Well, off to Vedauwoo for a day of getting thrashed. I don't know why I do it, nobody who Actually had free will would choose to do this. If I actually had free will, surely I would go sport climbing or something.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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And a little Sunday morning comic relief.
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MH2
climber
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Thanks, Jan.
But Theseus has to follow the thread. I searched for 'the key to the treasure is the treasure' and the results surprised me.
edit:
And amused me.
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