The Massive Ark on the Moon (very OT, but of high interest)

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Winemaker

Sport climber

Yakima, WA

Sep 15, 2018 - 05:03pm PT

I've always wondered where all the UFO sightings were prior to 1947.......... Why were there no sightings before the jet age really got going? And why, for god's sake, do aliens need to do anal probes on humans? Seems a bit ... weird.

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay

Sep 15, 2018 - 05:54pm PT

Jim Brennan,

Neil deGrasse Tyson is always entertaining, that's why he has the job he does. I am familiar with most of what he talks about in your video reference, although I think he has some of it skewed a little bit for the sake of entertainment ... nothing serious.

My son won first prize at his grade school science fair with a demonstration of how Columbus stole the moon ... by direct astronomical observations on the beach, rather than by reading astronomical tables ...

(Archeo-astronomy is a fascinating subject and I love the book 'How the Shaman Stole the Moon' that was a gift from my young son.)

Tyson's charming reference to Galileo Galilei is just a passing glance, so he can be forgiven for poetically oversimplifying a long complex dramatic story.

And I had some direct professional involvement in the nuclear weapons sustainability program ... his description there seems a bit odd to me, but it's a very big program ...

However I don't quite see why your reference here is relevant to this discussion except to illustrate that there are some knowledgeable intelligent astrophysicists within the academic community.

So do you have relevant commentary on the video I referenced up-thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmq-3Crw4cA

Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber

San Diego, CA

Sep 15, 2018 - 07:07pm PT

Sharing something of interest with everyone how is that bad? No fraud involved just curiosity. So you aren’t curious? You should be. The truth matters. Check into it or don’t. The choice is yours.

What the heck closed down the observatory? Really strange. Why so much secrecy?

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/uncategorized/406851-new-mexico-solar-observatory-denies-aliens-involved-in

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay

Sep 15, 2018 - 07:39pm PT

Thank you Jim Brennan, I always appreciate your enlightened perspective ...

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay

Sep 15, 2018 - 08:15pm PT

truth is like layers of an onion with always another layer to learn about

you are stuck needing to create your own level of trust

and i'm probably not the right person to ask

explain what you are asking for

how do you verify anything

TLP

climber

Sep 15, 2018 - 09:21pm PT

With all of these supposedly well researched blogs and YouTube videos and so on, surely there's at least one single peer-reviewed publication about the metallurgy or biology. Somewhere. That's what I want to read. But I'm not going to waste hours watching what people, no matter who, talk about, only to find out there's no other evidence than their words and some dubious photos. I want the reference to that publication. Preferably a good 20 or 50 such publications. Everything else that's scientific reality is documented this way, and the fact that there is such a resounding silence in this regard about extraterrestrial visitors casts a huge amount of doubt on the eyewitness statements.

It was totally cool when a fish, and not just any fish but a really remarkable one phylogenetically and biologically, that was thought to have been extinct for tens of millions of years, was captured alive! It's totally cool when not just new species, but whole new genera of vertebrates turn up in southeast Asian food markets. There is zero reasonable doubt that there is life elsewhere than planet Earth (er, more like planet Water), and I'd be stoked to see real evidence of some of it coming here so we can learn about and from it. But I just do not see anything factual. Lots of people convicted of horrible crimes based on eyewitnesses turn out to be innocent based on solid evidence (e.g. DNA). So ALL of those statements reports funky photos, and all the rest sit in the unverified folder until we have some actual science about it. Anybody able to provide the citation(s) I'm looking for? Please do. The representation that the entire scientific periodical enterprise is censored (censured? not sure what's meant by it) is total hooey. A journal would absolutely KILL to be able to publish such an earth-shaking discovery. But it's got to be a solid article with backup data and samples that other experts can evaluate. And that never seems to turn up.

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay

Sep 15, 2018 - 09:52pm PT

TLP, there are many of those read into the black programs who think you deserve to know, and many of those have lost their lives trying.

However what you are asking for from peer reviewed journals is not going to happen so long as the controllers of the military/industrial complex have control of the information, unless you can obtain non-governmental security clearances many layers above Top Secret.

If you can't believe very senior whistle blower's books and reports and interviews or video imagery of unusual craft in flight, then you might be able to establish mental contact with someone willing to take you for a demonstration ride ...

in my humble opinion all of the above regarding advanced technology and alien and hybrid biology is irrelevant to the real challenge facing us, but you are making it clear that you aren't willing to listen and learn ... so best of luck with all that ...

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay

Sep 15, 2018 - 10:43pm PT

The simple question is are non-human advanced species interacting with humans on earth?

The simple answer is yes without a doubt, even if we are limited to talking about whales and dolphins. This is notably a white man's hubris problem. Many older native cultures would not even think of asking such ridiculous questions on a planet with trillions of uniquely capable species.

This is more of a philosophical and perceptual question than not. You are manifested as a human being and apparently have opinions about how that somehow auto-magically makes you superior. Wrong. It only makes you pretty good at playing games uniquely devised within the limited world view of some humans. Many other species manifest as other life forms specialized in other sorts of games. You ask whether some life forms come from elsewhere? I would suggest that anyone asking such questions doesn't know nearly enough to be asking such questions and faces serious cognitive dissonance in their world view. Sorry about that.

Along with this is the question whether there are vehicles in this planet's atmosphere and oceans and underground that are well beyond the technology of our popularly known aircraft and submarines and subterrains? The answer to this is heavily suppressed by the local controllers. But it is very well documented by innumerable cases where radar shows vehicles performing maneuvers beyond what we know about the physical laws of aerodynamics, while also being observed at close range by pilots in the air. Those who deny this are just not paying attention or else are part of the coverup. It is being covered up because people who take such games very seriously, don't like to admit when they have been outclassed. The oddest part of this question is the primitive viewpoint that vehicles are even useful or needed except perhaps as a convenient place to keep stuff organized. Such advanced vehicles represent a serious distraction from much more important issues.

This leads to the question as to whether such vehicles demonstrate advanced secret capabilities of the military/industrial complex on this planet or from elsewhere? Again asking this question reveals serious philosophical perception challenges. The documented evidence indicates a resounding yes within the terms that are realistic to you.

It's not the government and yes they can keep secrets.

However all these questions become moot once you begin to assimilate the implications of quantum physics into your perceptual world view.

dirtbag

climber

Sep 15, 2018 - 10:55pm PT

You guys do realize that X-files was fiction?

TLP

climber

Sep 15, 2018 - 11:48pm PT

Oh, I definitely agree about whales and dolphins, these are incredibly intelligent non-human organisms. But they fit in the well documented framework of biology. Ants too: the colony as a whole functions in incredibly sophisticated ways, using means of coordination that we have worked out only at a rudimentary level.

As for the vehicles, the evidence is unconvincing as of yet. Open to better documentation any time. I also disagree about the keeping of secrets. Humans simply cannot do it on a large scale of space, numbers of individuals, and timeline. There is a point about the possibility of the flying things being fairly ordinary, namely products of sophisticated military R&D. But as to exceeding the known laws of physics, no way this can be convincing without really really bombproof documentation. If this exists but is being effectively suppressed, oh well, file it under Santa Claus until later.

Finally there are the reported extraterrestrial beings. Why are they always humanoid? The most unlikely imaginable body plan for an organism. Why are they never whale-iform? Or raven-iform? Or insectiform? This makes any thinking person very suspicious about the veracity of the statements; even more suspicious that there are so many such statements but they are always vaguely parallel.

zBrown

Ice climber

Sep 16, 2018 - 06:29am PT

Local controllers unionized?

Dues?

President Hoffa. Never found.

Peter Donat, Agent Mulder’s Father on 'The X-Files,' Dies at 90

It is rumoured that this is a Whale Tale told to Dr. Lilly at some point in conversation.

“In the province of the mind, what one believes to be true, either is true or becomes true within certain limits. These limits are to be found experientially and experimentally. When the limits are determined, it is found that they are further beliefs to be transcended. In the province of the mind, there are no limits. The body imposes definite limits.”

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Sep 16, 2018 - 08:48am PT

K-2.0 Thank you for answering.

K2 and TC bear their souls here. Disagreeing is a great discussion. Just hitting them with put-downs is highly un-evolved, middle-school bullying. (oops, there I did it too)

My policy is to look, but believe none of the tall tales. I will look but believe only my own perceptions. (and even those can be suspect)

Niel deGrasse Tyson is a prophet of Science. He wants you to believe it like a religion. He is no different than an evangelist. If you feel comfortable with him, you are being hypnotized.

True science is objective. You say "it looks like it might be this way." A true scientist doesn't speak in absolutes.

FRUMY

Trad climber

Bishop,CA

Sep 16, 2018 - 10:32am PT

As you peel each layer of an Onion you get more of the same more Onion.

As you peel each layer of the truth you get more of the same the truth.

originalpmac

Mountain climber

Timbers of Fennario

Sep 16, 2018 - 10:57am PT

I love this thread. The back and forth between Tom Cohcrane and TLP is great. As to TLPs question about why all the alleged aliens are humanoid, could it be convergent evolution on a galactic scale? And why do you say the human form is unlikely imaginable body plan for an organism? It seems to work (mostly) well for us.

TLP

climber

Sep 16, 2018 - 08:57pm PT

The human body plan works great for us in many respects (though not so well for aging backs), but it's still unlikely. Mammals were around for 100 million years or something, and hominins are the only truly bipedal one. Other tetrapods, what, 300 million years? more? But the only bipedal dinosaurs (including birds) have pretty limited function of the forelimbs (other than wings, pretty functional to be sure). That's all I mean by unlikely. The sequence of evolutionary innovations leading to humanoid form, with highly functional forelimbs (meaning, with hands on them), is a complicated sequence. It seems just really beyond plausible coincidence that the same sequence would occur elsewhere in the galaxy (or other galaxies) and be the ONLY sequence with the current representatives being intelligent enough to make interstellar vehicles. Possible, to be sure, just really unlikely.

I would be stoked if real evidence of such travellers turned up, really. I don't entirely discount the possibility at all. I just don't find any of the proferred evidence convincing yet. Totally amazing things turn up in science all the time, like for instance the recent demonstration that plants react to damage in one leaf and transmit (passively, but they still do it) a signal rapidly to other parts of the plant in seconds, and this triggers genetic mobilization of defenses. Wow! Back when it was widely deemed ridiculous to talk to your house plants, anyone suggesting this happened would have been ridiculed too. And yet here we have solid evidence from repeatable experiments with all the methods described precisely. That's what needs to turn up for the hypothesis of interstellar vehicles other than human-built probes to get a better reception.