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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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Right on, Blue....(grins)
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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Seek Him with a sincere heart & see what happens.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Is he going to have time to take me up Bachar/Yerian before he gets on to other important stuff?
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा, co
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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What are you people talking about, Jesús was here this afternoon, he cut the lawn, trimmed the hedges then went on his merry way.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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That guy does good work....
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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Well, If I say I am Jerry Husted's daughter it's not bragging. It's just fact. Again, these comments only appear when you're talking about Jesus Christ. You don't hear them when you talk about incarnations of Buddha, or any other. I think it's because you actually have to make a choice. He wasn't down with fence-sitters.
"Either you're hot or Cold" if you are luke-warm It makes me sick
(paraphrase - the real word is for barf).
I think He would have walked right up to a fire with climbers sitting there, or at the bottom of some route. he would have probably said, "the Kingdom of God is like a route ..."
Following him is. if anyone understands commitment ..
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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Largo, I'm genuinely curious. No conspiracies at work. I'm not a Christian, but I'm not outright denying his existence either. Just wondering what kind of hard or even somewhat hard evidence exists. After 30 years, I understand that you might be a bit rusty on this, so I'm not trying to badger you either. I thought it was a basic question.
A close friend of mine who was a religion major said there isn't much beyond vague references in contemporary documents. I don't view the Bible as a trustworthy source because it was written a few years after his death by people who did not know him and has since been heavily edited by various people in power.
Werner, pulling what out of a hat?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:06am PT
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I admit I was wrong about Howiedean. He definitely is not Jody.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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dirtbag -- "Werner, pulling what out of a hat?"
Your memory is short, your vision is short.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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Posting in a thread where I actually agree with some of the things that Howeird is saying.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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"dirtbag -- "Werner, pulling what out of a hat?"
Your memory is short, your vision is short. "
Fine, go ahead and play hide the ball then.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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Largo, great thoughtful posts. Reading what Jesus said in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is incredibly heart and mind provoking.
In Psalm 145: It says, "The Lord is near to all that call upon him, to all who call on him in truth."
James 4:8 "Come near to God and He will come near to you."
If anyone is really interested in finding the answer, take some quiet hours/days and go on an amazing quest.
Lynne is in the middle of discovering another "new frontier". Tho the trail has been a real bushwack, I can see the peaks gleaming in the distant sunlight.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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Dirtbag, I'm sorry for adding this because you weren't asking me the question, but it may help to know a couple of things.
"Most of what we think we know about Socrates comes from a student of his over forty years his junior, Plato. Socrates himself wrote--so far as we know--nothing. Plato (427 to 347 B.C.E) is especially important to our understanding of the trial of Socrates because he, along with Xenophon, wrote the only two surviving accounts of the defense (or apology) of Socrates. Of the two authors, Plato's account is generally given more attention by scholars because he, unlike Xenophon, actually attended the one-day trial of Socrates in Athens in 399 B.C.E."
(http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/socrates/Plato&soc.html
at least a .edu)
"The Tripitaka (called Tipitaka in Pali) is the earliest collection of buddhist writings. Initially, they were composed orally, but were written down by the third century bce. The word means "the three baskets," (tri=three, pitaka=baskets), and refers to the way the texts were first recorded. The early writing material was long, narrow leaves, which were sewn together on one side. Bunches of these were then stored in baskets. This is a large collection, running 45 volumes in one modern edition." (http://uwacadweb.uwyo.edu/Religionet/er/buddhism/BTEXTS.HTM at least this is a .edu)
". The time of his birth and death are uncertain: most early 20th-century historians date his lifetime from c. 563 BCE to 483 BCE" (Wikipedia, sorry, but this is pretty much so)
Religious degrees are about a study of something. I don't mean to
minimize what your friend knows, but people don't go after Socrates or Buddha. Neither of them wrote their teachings down.
And, the teachings were written further from their lives.
I have this to say about the keeping of history in those days.
We have a very weak presumption that oral history was inferior.
I think it might have been, actually, very accurate. The keeping
of such history known to be of such importance was not as casual
as our analogy of the "gossip" game. Not at all. Those keeping
history, including all the above, knew how precious their
task was.
EDIT; Howierdd (sorry about the sp), It's not a problem if you
ask for credibility. If you ask for one, then you must ask from
all. He said he's the Son of God, I just agreed with him. It's
why they hauled him in.
His teachings are not complex, that's what's such a head scratcher: it's not that they would be so confusing and hard
to remember. It's that they are such an offense - he said that.
It was an offense then - claiming to be the son of God. It still
is. Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and
your neighbor as yourself. I am the good shepherd, I am the way,
Who comes to me, I will give living water ... you will never thirst. These are not hard things you might get mixed up.
For God so loved the world, He gave his only begotten son, that
whoever believes in him would have eternal life. Not whoever
gives more money, or thinks he can do it on his own merit. Just
receive a gift. No, you don't have to do anything. It's love
from there on. "Keep his commandments, and his commandments are
not burdensome, that you love one another". That was 1 John. John
was there with his mom watching him.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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Jesus is the bastard son of a rape! Poor Joseph! He didn't get any!
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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dfrost,
I appreciate your answer but that is not very persuasive.
Socrates at least knew Plato.
Buddha, I don't know enough about to comment.
I don't see why texts written years after someone's supposed death by people who did not know him are more believable because they were written 2000 years ago. There are lots of people and plenty of time for information to be misinterpreted, forgotten, made up, or outright distorted.
Many people hold beliefs that they feel are sacred. Many of them are also flat out wrong, and anything they wrote down would be wrong too.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:29am PT
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Socrates didn't promote religion - in fact, he was ostensibly executed for atheism, and corrupting youth. He talked about philosophy, and one of his acolytes/disciples (Plato) later wrote down what he claimed Socrates said. Whether Plato put words in Socrates' mouth, and whether what we see now is what Plato and the Academy recorded, is another matter. Although we have the Arabs and Turks to thank for transmitting it to us.
And Socrates was a real person - read Aristophanes.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:33am PT
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"We have a very weak presumption that oral history was inferior."--dfrost7
Yeah, when it goes against our OWN beliefs--when "we" agree with oral history, it's because the belief/faith is already there.
edit: how much do y'all "believe" the Native American oral history?
...and it's pretty fresh information, historically speaking.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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Dirtbag,
I couldn´t dig up much on the spur of the moment but this-
The existence of Jesus as an actual historical figure has been questioned by a few scholars and historians, some of the earliest being Constantin-François Volney and Charles François Dupuis in the 18th century and Bruno Bauer in the 19th century. Each of these proposed that the Jesus character was a fusion of earlier mythologies.
The views of scholars who entirely rejected Jesus' historicity were summarized in Will Durant's Caesar and Christ, published in 1944. Their rejections were based on a suggested lack of eyewitnesses, a lack of direct archaeological evidence, the failure of ancient works to mention Jesus, and similarities early Christianity shares with then-contemporary religion and mythology.
More recently, arguments for non-historicity have been discussed by George Albert Wells, by Earl Doherty (The Jesus Puzzle, 1999), by Tony Bushby (The Bible Fraud), by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy (Jesus & the Lost Goddess) and by biblical scholar Robert M. Price. Doherty, for example, maintains that the earliest records of Christian beliefs (the earliest epistles) are best explained if Christianity began as a mythic saviour cult, with no specific historical figure in mind.
Nevertheless, the historicity of Jesus is accepted by almost all Biblical scholars and classical historians. Theologian James Dunn describes the mythical Jesus theory as a 'thoroughly dead thesis'.
My personal sense of it is that we will never exhaust wondering who Jesus really and truly was, just as we´ll wonder the same things about ourselves. Son of God? This always throws us back to the question of God himself, and when you´ve found the person who has wrangled that one to the ground, let me know. I think it´s like asking fish about water, but we´re so close we literally can´t see or fathom ourselves. We merely think about ourselves and declare that´s all there is because thinking says so. I find this terribly underpowered and effete.
JL
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:44am PT
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Jesus didn't promote religion either.
Native American history, as well as other indigenous histories,
my point exactly. In fact, many are in tact without written
versions for centuries, more recently recorded. I have much
respect for them.
I can tell you, as a college teacher, many of my colleagues are
pretty religious about Socrates and the ancient Greeks.
It's ok. I'm not trying to win a bunch of points of discussion,
I respect what you guys have to say. (Click on that Penn link I
posted earlier).
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