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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Mar 23, 2009 - 06:11pm PT
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Grahm,
Don't know if you are excluding some stuff intentionally, but here are several crags not listed above that have previously reported routes (Spencer or Hartmann):
The Eggs
The Bastion
Little Sleep
The Lookout (must be more routes now than the one Hartmann did in the 90s)
Rock Creek Wall
I'll email you further input.
I see Mr. Ross has been busy!
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Mar 23, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
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What up Mooch?
Still Desert stranded?
So...Needles this Summer???
-JR
Yep, still in the 'Armpit Of The Mojave'. Welllllll......got my eyes set more on The Domelands (Church, Bart, The Pulpit). K. Solem recommended a bunch of routes to me a few years back and I intend on sampling these beauties. Of course the rest of the year will be hangin' out with you boys (damn East sider!) and "gettin' it dun". Also got some high country trips planned too.
Needles?? Maybe in the fall. But not before playin hooky with Munge and Brutus @ Hoffman.
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Oakhurst, CA
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Mar 24, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
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Thanks again! I updated the list. Wow, if you climbed just one day at each area it would take two months straight to hit them all! Not to mention all the unclimbed walls yet to be done.
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Mar 26, 2009 - 11:43am PT
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Anyone checked out that formation near the Jones Store (near the meadow)??
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crazy horse
Trad climber
seattle, wa
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Mar 26, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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All:
There is a good chance I'll be in SoYo Easter Weekend April 10-14 or so. Love to get on some stone then!!
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Mar 27, 2009 - 03:12pm PT
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Noted Matt. Wish I could.....takin' the daughter to D-Land that weekend. Ask Leo....he's the one with the snow mobile. ;)
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Oakhurst, CA
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Mar 28, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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Ok, here's the first section up for review. "The Talon"
http://www.gigmax.com/user.php?f=32747&u=sierraclimber1
Select the "Talon" file and click on the little download button on the right side. Its a pdf file so you will need a pdf application like Adobe Reader to view. Adobe has free downloads of the apps if you need one.
If you have any input let me know. Names, grades, star rating, history? Nate mentioned Vernon might have established top ropes here back in the day?
If you have a good action photo you would like in the guide for this section let me know as well. Ideally at least 3 megs in size. Older "vintage" photos a plus! I can scan them and mail back. Can't pay for pics but will give photo credits. I don't plan on using many pics of me but these are the only action shots I have so far.
Colored lines on the topo represent difficulty. Green - 5.9, Blue - 5.10, Yellow - 5.11, Purple - 5.12, Red - 5.13, Black - Project.
Star rating is out of three stars. I am thinking the rating system should be by wall. So three stars would be the best one on that wall but not in all of Shuteye.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mar 29, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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Bump it It's climbing!!!
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Mar 30, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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FYI - a buddy of mine managed to punch through the snow drifts at Dutch Oven Creek and made it as far as Jackass Rocks over the weekend going up Minarets Road from North Fork.
He's guessing that another week or so and all the snow below 7000 feet should be gone - at least on that route. Beasore is another story - some sledders he ran into say that 4 feet or so still sits on Cold Springs Summit.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 31, 2009 - 04:20am PT
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Grahm,
Nice work on the Talon!
> I don't plan on using many pics of me but these are the only action shots I have so far.
It's probably a wise move, but I don't see anything wrong with 1 or 2 action shots of yourself - you have some good ones. But 50% shots of you would look suspicious! :-) Good to start out now seeking a variety of shots - there's a long season ahead.
> Colored lines on the topo represent difficulty. Green - 5.9, Blue - 5.10, Yellow - 5.11, Purple - 5.12, Red - 5.13, Black - Project.
This sounds interesting, but it might not work so well if lines of the same color cross each other. Would you use a different pattern of lines, like dots or dashes to solve that?
> Star rating is out of three stars. I am thinking the rating system should be by wall. So three stars would be the best one on that wall but not in all of Shuteye.
What happens if there are only 1-2 routes at a crag? Then the stars are not very informative.
Also, if the stars are relative for each crag, then they don't help for choosing between crags. But maybe that is a good thing?
I was joking with my climbing partner last weekend about the 3-star vs. 5-star system. He likes the 5-star system, because it allows some lesser routes to get a single star instead of none. I feel that the 5-star system is inflated. Even a single star system is pretty good - it lets you know which routes to make sure you look at/consider doing, if you have limited time.
I like the 3-star system, but I'm concerned that 5-star guides might sell more, "because they have better climbs"?? :-) So I proposed a 6-star system - 0, 2, 4, or 6 stars. :-)
In the Index guidebook, we had a ratings survey, where we had a preliminary list of routes by grade with stars attached - I mailed several, and we also distributed some at the parking lot. People checked off or circled the routes they had done, and either agreed with the rating or supplied their own. I also had them fill in their height, so I could make a special list of routes where the ratings ranged the most for short vs. tall people. It was fun to tally up the results and use them in the guide.
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Mar 31, 2009 - 09:55am PT
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"Would you use a different pattern of lines, like dots or dashes to solve that?"
I agree that dashed lines should be used for the intended line and direction of the route. And "x"s be used for fixed pro (prehaps "P" for fixed pins). Keep it traditional in nature G.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Mar 31, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
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more comments from the peanut gallery: :)
I think color coding the lines is clever. I don't own many guidebooks, unlike Clint, but I've seen it used in the french Fontainebleau bouldering guide. Even though the same colors may cross, as long as another number marker is used at the split or intersection to indicate which route is which, it's no different than what is done on most 1 color topos.
To mooch's comment, correct me if I'm wrong Grahm, but it sounded like you said before that fixed protection would not be shown in your topos. I realize it's a ton of work, esp. to be accurate, but without it, it takes a lot more reading/time to figure out which routes are sport vs. trad vs. mixed, vs. runout, etc. This seems somewhat important in a region like Shuteye, where there is quite a mix of these different types of climbs. And what about natural vs. bolted anchor differentiation? But on the other hand, I must admit that I do sort of like that it requires a little more work to "read" the routes. Might increase the adventure factor a tad, as people still have to stand at the base of a climb and suss it out.
Photo topos, as helpful as they can be for smaller crags, have drawbacks for larger faces/cliffs, as it can often be hard to get good views of an entire face and it's climbs. Not as easy to xerox either, for stuffing in one's pocket, as some tend to do, esp. for multi-pitch climbs. Don't know if you intend to supplement photos with drawings for some crags.
To the comment on dashed lines, they can be more problematic to read for photo overlays (depending on the photo and the colors used), but it does help discern cracks and features on a route that can get covered up by solid lines.
I like the idea of the star system for individual crags, but to Clint's point, it might also be helpful to have some way of indicating "overall" Shuteye classics. Sometimes this is just a "best of" list in the back of a book, but seeing as you are going 4 color, you could even have some route names in red, or the stars in red, indicating overall classics. Many options here.
I'm sure you've considered all of this already. Real cool, IMO, that you are so open in sharing this work in progress!
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crazy horse
Trad climber
seattle, wa
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Mar 31, 2009 - 03:57pm PT
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In response to the star system, the idea of doing stars relative to other routes on the same crag seems foreign to me. Aren't pretty much all guidebooks that use the system using either:
1. stars evaluated based on the general area or
2. stars are evaluated based on the general classicness (i know that's not a word) of the route?
it might be tough using #2 since the scale will be tipped toward everything being rated at 3 stars. Paraphrasing a friend on a route we did (that wasn't way more spectacular than anything else in the area) a few years ago "this is a good as any of the three star routes in Tuolumne"
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Mar 31, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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"...The stars weren't so big; they were really quite small.
You would think such a thing wouldn't matter at all." :)
I like the consensus survey idea you used for Index, Clint. Difficult to do at Shuteye, however, with many routes seeing very very little travel.
Matt-
Plenty of crappy 0 stars still to do out there. It's just that all the gems naturally get plucked first! ;)
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crazy horse
Trad climber
seattle, wa
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Mar 31, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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"I like the consensus survey idea you used for Index, Clint. Difficult to do at Shuteye, however, with many routes seeing very very little travel." Agreed
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Oh, Nate.....you put a stitch in my side with the Dr. Seuss "Star Belly Sneets" (sp?) bit.
You know who could really get some fine "ax-shon" photos is nefarius! Need to get him up there this season. Made a few of us look like action heros :P
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Oakhurst, CA
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Some good food for thought you guys! Once more crags get indexed we should definitely come up with a must do tick list for all the grades.
I don't think I can handle showing every bolt placement at Shuteye and ever actually finish the Guide. The route description will have bolt counts, anchor description and gear requirements. Nate has a good point about noting whether its sport or spicy. The bolt counts should give that away but maybe a cool little icon or the movie system ie. G, PG13, R would be better.
On another note I found a great deal on a 2003 900cc snowmobile and added it to my rack. Leo and I took them out for a test run ride last night. You can literally go anywhere on these things, just point toward a crag and pull the throttle! It only goes 115 mph...
There is still 6 feet of snow at the top of Beasore and Central Camp road is totally buried. Its still going to be a while before 4x4's can make it out there.
Also, this last weekend there was no snow to Mile High overlook on Minerets.
We are going to try to romp the snowmobiles up to Crocodile on Saturday and get some climbing in.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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"You know who could really get some fine "ax-shon" photos is nefarius! Need to get him up there this season."
hahaha Thanks, Dave! I'm definitely down to get up there with you guys!!! Would love to get some shots. That place is so sick for shooting! Have some new ideas this year too, so... Not to mention my new camera will hopefully be available by then!
Just had a look at my calendar - I'll be in either Utah or Mexico May 21-31.
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Hey Randy,
As you can see from Grahm's info above, there is still a bunch of snow burying Beasore (and I'm sure the same is true about Grizzly Rd). I'm thinkin' about trying for mid-May (May 15th-17th....got Friday off that week). If the snow is minimal, anyone wanna shoot for that weekend? Think you can make it that weekend Randy? G? Nate?
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tom Slater
Trad climber
CA
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I'll play devil's advocate just for fun -
If I read a route listing, and it says 4 bolts + pro to 3" I know it isn't going to be a true sport route. If it says 4 bolts, it may mean it's a sport route, OR a runout route. So if you don't put in bolts on the topo, then just use a R or X next to the rating. If it only says pro to 3" I'll expect a trad line. And if it has a R next to it I know also what to expect.
As far as colors and icons... sometimes too much is just too much. Some topos are REALLY over done. Giving me the cam sizes for a belay at each point implies that I won't be able to figure it out. Some say it is to remind you to save pro for the belay, but who told the first ascent party? And didn't they live to tell the story? Perhaps a lot of adventure is lost these days due to over done topos and route descriptions. If I'm ever on a route and I'm stopping to read my topo each time I place a piece... I think i've lost something important.
Stars... man, people are obsessed, but nothing in a book is more subjective. Even ratings are less subjective. I remember being a new climber and gunning for the ultra-classic water cracks on Lembert.. the guide said * out of *. It's still one of the lamest routes I've ever done to this day. For one it isn't a crack. And you pretty much do the same move 50 times in a row. Not sure what is so classic about that.
My POINT is just that different climbs appeal to different people, like salsa.
To engage the reader, write a description and maybe say "classic for the area" or "good climb". That will get people reading and not just scanning for stars. Descriptions can do more than stars - "First pitch is classic, but skip the loose 2nd pitch." Or, "after you endure the grainy first pitch you'll be rewarded with a classic splitter crack."
And if you screw up on a bolt placement, or number (heaven knows they tend to change) of bolts, someone is likely to be pretty torqued. You're messing with safety now, not quality, which is different.
Anyway, that's enough, I say less is sometimes more. But that's just me. Some climbers want a map from the car to the summit and back.
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