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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:44pm PT
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Do you have a valid link verifying Gurion actually publicly said that about Arabs?
"No! He said those things to a world stage "
I'll need proof of that, everything I see says otherwise.
I'm still waiting.....
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:49pm PT
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Blue if Fattrad, the staunchest supportr of Israel and Aipac on ST won't and can't refute these statements why are you so desperate to try.
Like your inane statement that Hamas has killed thousands and thousands of Israeli citizens with their rockets that you doggedly adhered to. You were and are wrong and refuse to accept it.
I ask again why is this so important for you?
What stake do you hold in this conflict?
How many family and friends did you lose in the last five days on either side of the conflict.
For us it has been 5 so far and probably up to 15.
Happy New Year. Shalom!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:55pm PT
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Philo, Fatty didn't post the propaganda (probably didn't even watch it), it's up to you to give me some reliable historical record of that statement that I refuted pretty quickly.
It's crap and you know it!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
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philo,
Then why did Sharon hand over Gaza?
So that no Jewish people would be in the way of the destruction involved in invasion.
Because the collective thinking is "we don't want to be outbirthed", the only solution to that is the one the Germans used on us. That's why the current fence line is it.
That is a very telling comment Jeff. How soon will you be shipping the ovens over?
Give up on the Israel wants it all rant, that's old history. Now if Islam could give up on the Saladin solution everything would be ok.
Sharon, Nutt n yahoo, Ehud Barak all made statements to this effect in the 21st century. And to you that is old history. Yet somehow you want to convince us that modern Arabs are clinging to a mythical 12th century "Saladin solution".
Please spare me the lunatic duality of that ridiculous statement.
Jody's evil twin
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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So just to be clear to the few Arab hating, Palestinian bashing, hate filled war mongers here on the Taco Stand.
I on my own business. I can send my crew out to do what ever work needs to be done. Which gives me more than ample time to counter, refute and challenge what ever misinformation and lies you care to spew forth. I will spend the next twenty years stepping on your toes at every turn. I am a accomplished researcher and avid student of history and geo-politics. I am also a notorious insomniac. So go ahead and go for it spew all you want till you get worn out or down. I have NO intent to allow you to malign the Palestinians and lie about this conflict. I will be there every day, everystep of the way.
The Truth is out there, the truth will set you free.
Please go ahead I am waiting.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:20pm PT
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Blue, why don't we help mexicans who just want jobs? The problem is large and if Egypt just opened up their borders, then they would have a flood of refugees. It is ugly in Gaza. Many people want to leave because they are powerless. One of the things the Israel has done has shut down most possibilities of economic rebuilding.
This is an on going problem and the thing I am hoping that you will see is that Israel is not innocent in this process. So don't paint it black and white and say that Hamas must act first before Israel will pretend to act nice. There are news stories after news stories about how Israel has mistreated these people, even during so called truces. They just don't get much play in America because we have a vested interest in making Israel look good.
None of this means Hamas is innocent. There are not.
But try to see the frustration of a people who have been kicked out of their own homes when Israel was created. Not given any land or if given land, then it is poor land with no water. Then when they try political means to get redress, they are ignored for years and years. So some of them resort to terrorism and then all of them are blamed and Israel punishes the whole group.
So they vote in a more radical leadership and the cycle of violence continues.
Israel is not innocent in this. In the last 20 years a lot of things that they have done in the name of defending themselves have actually been about vengeance.
They aren't going after the terrorist, which many could support. They are exacting vengeance on a people.
Yes it is easy to understand why they are doing it. They are tired of being a whipping dog. Their plight was ignored by the world before WW2, and now that they have power. But this power does not give them the right to try and destroy a people even if 5 percent of those people are causing serious problems.
Look closer into zionism and you will start to understand some of what I am saying.
I will end by saying that Hamas needs to stop the rockets. World pressure needs to be applied to get them to stop. Israel must also stop its aggressive acts and world pressure must be brought to bare on them.
The problem is that many people in America are ignorant of the situation in places like gaza. They watch a 30 second news blip of a rocket attack and don't look at the underlying causes.
Yes Sharon gave up Gaza, because of world pressure. So Israel began a process of cutting them off, in the name of defense. They use brutal tactics in the name of stopping terrorism, but their tactics do nothing to actually stop the terrorist. They actually inflame the situation.
If you look for underlying reasons that they would inflame a situation, then look at zionism. The history is all there to see.
Now I have to go. Please try Blue, to see both sides of the argument. Both sides are deeply frustrated. It is beyond ugly and neither side is innocent. I think that a UN peacekeeping force will have to be brought in if this overt violence does not end soon. That will of course not end the covert violence. Public pressure and a waking up of the people will be required for that.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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philo,
Poked around a bit.
From everything I've found Guron did not say the statement in question at a speech or in public.
But he did write it in a letter to his son.
Passing on to future generations.....the past means nothing at all Jeff!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:36pm PT
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The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.
Speech in 1937, accepting a British proposal for partition of Palestine which created a potential Jewish majority state, as quoted in New Outlook (April 1977)
Notice that is says "speech". And unless he gave speeches in a closet that would make it public. though it only took 40 years for it to be made fully public.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:37pm PT
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I was referring to...
" We must expel the Arabs and take their place"
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
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"Prior to Hamas seizing power from Fatah, the people of Gaza were not "cut off"."
I like how you replace the concept of seizing for what actually happened, an open election that Israel was not happy with at all.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:58pm PT
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It actually might have been.
The Pals elected Hammas, not because they promised to kick Israel's ass (which is what allot of Israel's apologists want you to believe), because Fatah was/is corrupt beyond all recognition and did nothing to help the everyday Pal. Hammas did. They were doing the humanitarian work Fatah should have been.
Once Hammas gained power the pooch got screwed by Israel's insistence that no one have anything to do with the newly elected government and that the election was illegitimate.
If that government had been taken seriously and given the legitimacy it needed from the rest of the world you'd have something or someone to take to task when sh#t hits the fan. But instead there is a loose coalition of factions in Gaza that can only be responded to with more violence since there is no central pillar of power.
And I'm sure this will all happen again. Things will "quiet" down. An election will be held and Israel will not be happy with the outcome.
Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.......
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 05:11pm PT
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Here is another classic Ben Gurion quote.
" If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel.
It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promissed it ot us, but how could that interest them? Our goal is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: We have come and stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime minister) (The Jewish Paradox)
And here is a speech addressed to Ben Gurion by a noted Jewish philosopher in 1949
"We will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in it's creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered; A refugee population in Diaspora."
And the same learned Jewish philosopher later said in 1968.
"When we [followers of the prophetic Judaism] returned to Palestine...The majority of the Jewish people preferred to learn from Hitler rather than from us."
And one of my all time favorites.
"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the Freedom Party(Herut), a political party closely akin in it's organization, method, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties."
Albert Einstein 1948.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Where do you suppose this came from and when?
EDIT
From our 1974 class project. . . .
Funny how things have hardly changed in 35 years
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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what is it supposed to be? who is it from/to? what lends it authenticity other than the archaic appearance?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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" Where do you suppose this came from and when? "
10 to one it is from one of the uncountable resolutions against Israel that were completely ignored( most likely from mid 70's).
Did some more research regarding events that led up to the current hostilities.
So who violated the cease fire and started this latest round of bull sh#t? Whom or what group will gain the most from this latest round of hostilities?
Read and use the 10% alloted...
Pretty much nails it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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There is a UN resolution regarding the borders of Israel and demands they return to them. UN resolution 242. Never been rescinded.
But we can't face things like this and don't know how to deal with them. Yes it's bad that Hamas fires rockets into nearby Israeli towns and settlements. The question I don't see being asked is "Which Israel is being rocketed by Hamas? 1948 Israel? Post 1967 Israel? Or even later settlements?
Is there any Illegal Israeli settlement that is considered a legit target by anybody? If not, how can folks consider it OK for Israel to deal so much death and destruction from the air in Gaza, killing lots of kids in the process? They have such military superiority that destruction through airstrikes must be for convenience and safety's sake no?
Seems like a big double standard to me. As long as Israel keeps expanding illegal settlements, against any and all agreements with the world and the US, how can they be regarded as faultless in this violence?
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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All of California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Texas, New Mexico and parts of Colorado, Oklahoma, Wyoming, and Kansas were all STOLEN from Mexico.
But if Mexicans started shooting thousands of rockets over the border at American cities such as San Diego, Tucson, Yuma and El Paso, you can bet that America would take much stronger action then what we're seeing Israel take in Gaza.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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...terrorism seems to be the national sport of the Muslim.
Looking at it that way my anxiety is reduced
to zero when seeing the news. Its just another sports
commentary on winners and losers.
40-love Serve.......wap.......Blam!!!
Your serve Muslim...
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