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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 05:24pm PT
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Mimi wrote: Not wanting to siege and hangdog a route into submission is IMO, protecting an area's integrity, not stagnating in it. That the scene didn't stay in Yosemite and moved elsewhere as it always does, doesn't by itself invalidate the past standards and accomplishments in Yosemite. There was a point to it all.
So sieging and hang dogging are bad but beating big walls into submission on daily basis with rivet, bashie's and pins is ok and upholds the integrity of the Valley.
Thanks for making that so clear!
Los contradiciones de la Mimi Way
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Mimi
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 06:24pm PT
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Geeze, Bob. Did you avoid or simply miss the entire WOS thread collection and the multitude of clean aid discussions on here??!!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2008 - 08:48pm PT
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Jstan. you keep bringing up the gunks bolt ban and I have to tell you that is one of my all time ethics pet peeves. The Gunks are graced with well over a thousand climbs that are well protected with horozontal cracks which readily accept pitons, nuts, cams, tricams etc. So here we have a bunch of guys sitting on a gold mine of naturaly protectable climbs and they decide on a bolt ban. Fine, go for it. You still have over 1,000 well protected climbs in your back yard. The real CRAPPY part is when you then think that you can tell other climbing areas that they can't have bolts. THAT SUCKS!! Your sittining there fat and happy with all your climbs telling some poor sod with a crackless cliff that they shouldn't bolt it. Thats kind of like a farmer from the northeast trying to tell a farmer from the southwest how to manage their water...My thought has allways been BUGGER off and manage your own damn cliff and leave mine alone.
PS Only climbed Pennitente once about 10 yrs ago but it seemed like a nice place. didn't see that there grid boltin I was warned about.....
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 11, 2008 - 09:12pm PT
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Bob Di'antonio writes
"John...csdude is wrong. His statement is vague at best and does not address what the mess is!! There has only been a handful of new routes in Penitente in the last 10-15 years... "
Well you can see were this becomes a matter of subjective
opinion. I think it is....
Example-
Mission in the rain gets put up...
Mission in the sun gets put up 10 ft away..
Mission in the snow gets put up between the two.
Thats what some call "grid bolting" and several other
walls are just about as bad.
Someone also went and added bolts to established routes
such as "not my cross to bear" -got 2 added.
There is a bolted 2" crack in rock canyon.
Then someone (alex) retro bolted several easy things we've each
soloed, I mean c'mon...this is what top ropes are for, they
don't need all those feakin' bolts.
And lastly there is a chiseled hold on "virgin no more"
Your route I believe.
The improvements you mention are good, but what was once a nice pristine canyon (with a huge Virgin painted on a rock) is
now basicaly a climbing gym on a nice day.
Just my humble opinion, maybe I'm wrong.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 11, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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Hedge - Ron Kauk and I did the first free ascent of the Rostrum (ground up, no falls) - we used the escape pitch at the top (5.10b/c).
Just for historical purposes. Thx, jb
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 11, 2008 - 09:30pm PT
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When you do new routes , here is what you get to hear;
Too many bolts
Not enough bolts
Man, that rock is choss
Too short
You ruined that route
Why did you climb THAT?
Isn't that illigal?
You put the bolts in the wrong spots.
You put the bolt too high
You put the bolt too low
You should have put in a pin instead of a bolt.
You should have put in a bolt instead of a pin.
You went the wrong way
The first bolt is too high
The first bolt is too low.
You didn't rap bolt did you?
You didn't put that up on the lead, did you?
You didn't hand drill , did you...(You idiot)
YOu didn't use a power drill did you ( You idiot)
That route will Never get done again.
You stole that route from me.
There are already too many climbs on that wall.
Your bolts ruined my wilderness experience.\
Those bolts suck
Why didn't you use stainless steel?
You put the anchor in the wrong place.
Those hangers suck.
That route should never have been done
You only climb for your ego.
That route name sucks.
That is a serious waste of bolts.
Why didn't you just top rope the climb?
All your routes are choss.
You pulled the rope and went for the red point, didn't you?
You didn't hang on hooks, did you? (That's cheating)
You didn't clean the route enough.
You cleaned the route too much
I can't ever find your climbs.
I soloed that years ago with Matt Cox.
If you bolt that route, I will chop it, (And kick your ass).
You are going to get someone killed.
Why didn't you put in a sport anchor?
Why did you put in a sport anchor?
All you really need to say is thank you. That works for me....what do you think, Bob D'Antonio?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2008 - 09:33pm PT
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fatty, Just trying to point out that what works for one area may not work for annother area with diferent rock/features etc. On a broader scale its like the pickel that farmers and country folk in NY sate find themself in. There is a problem in NYC so the state legislature passes a law to fix that problem yet the farmer in the northcountry has to abide by the same law regardless of the fact that his/her situation could not be any more different from that of NYC if he was on the moon.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 11, 2008 - 09:35pm PT
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Back on topic...
How come those guys in Elbsandstein still stick to the ground up thing?
How do they do it?
Why do they care?
In 2002, I gave a slide show in Bratislava and talked to some climbers from that area. I asked them what they do when Euro dudes come up and try to rap bolt something. One of them said, " While rap bolter is still finishing the last bolts we are hiking to base with crow bars. The bolts are gone in fifteen minutes."
I said, "Whoah".
He smiled.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2008 - 09:37pm PT
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Good post Todd!
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ghand
Sport climber
Golden,Colorado
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May 11, 2008 - 11:05pm PT
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csdude wrote:
Then someone (alex) retro bolted several easy things we've each
soloed, I mean c'mon...this is what top ropes are for, they
don't need all those feakin' bolts.
This refers to Mr.Breeze, a truely fantastic place for children. My youngest daughter led it when she was 9 (14 years ago). There are pictures of 4 year olds leading it. Penitente is one of the most child friendly areas. Families are there with strollers and playpens. We went camping and climbing there last year with our grandchildren. There is always a line at these climbs. Do the bolts on this route really bother you that much?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 11:36pm PT
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The Gunks ban was not a compromised deal...it was a one way street.
The San Luis Valley is a user friendly area that offers good camping, climbing, hiking, mountain biking picnicking in spectacular setting.
csdude wrote: The improvements you mention are good, but what was once a nice pristine canyon (with a huge Virgin painted on a rock) is
now basicaly a climbing gym on a nice day.
Just my humble opinion, maybe I'm wrong.
You have no idea what the canyon looked like before climber showed up...like a lot of things in your post...just speculation.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 11, 2008 - 11:51pm PT
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Ok...I'll accept the user friendlyness of the area
and some safe easy routes etc.
I was there from the beginning when there were only a
few routes and it was a wild and beautiful place.
That quality is now lost as row after row of shinny bolts
glisten in the sunlight.
Anyway thats not Bobs fault and I just thought it wasn't
the greatest example for his original point which I forgot
what was anyway.
-end tangent
What I would really like to ask Bob is if he is familiar with the sports park in Boulder canyon and his thoughts on it.
For those not familiar with that, it was a somewhat chossy
crag just a few miles from the Castle and it's famous trad routes.
Rolofson showed me this place, apparently this area was
completley contrived for sport climbing with high density
bolting and chiseled routes. A few people went up there with
compressors, chisels, bars, generators, lighting and even
kerosean heaters and made their own little climbing gym.
I guess some folks wern't to thrilled by it all.
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ghand
Sport climber
Golden,Colorado
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May 12, 2008 - 12:07am PT
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Certainly the Sport Park is a low point in how to bolt, and that is putting it mildly. That said, it was also one of the most crowded areas. I have not been there in a few years, but it is a good place to take beginners because of lots of easy routes. I hear some like to dry tool there.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 12:10am PT
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And now for a question, anyone.
If there was a blank 60 foot boulder in your back yard, (you own the property and the boulder).
Would you (anyone), do anything un-natrual to it to make it climb-able, or would you leave it in it's original state?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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Is is just a rock, or a reincarnation of someone I may not have liked? Up to 400 posts while I've been climbing and doing Mother's Day - I'll have to play catch-up tomorrow.
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 05:52am PT
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TMC
Your point about the differences between areas is entirely correct. In a nutshell here is what I have been saying.
1. When the first bolt goes in you create a huge management problem.
2. When you put a bolt in you have to take responsibility for the problem you are creating.
3. You take that problem into consideration when you listen to others BEFORE you put the bolt in.
4. If the problem is taken into consideration in this way you will not end up with boltless areas. You will end up with areas that the people in general feel is a reasonable compromise. That is where we are trying to go.
5. That is why I have long argued once in, a bolt needs to stay till there is agreement it has to go.
None of this resembles a jolly good time where you go out and have lots of fun. A question. If one is primarily interested in avoiding difficulty, isn't going climbing an oxymoron? Going climbing just for the exercise isn't smart either. It is a really poor way to get exercise. It generates adrenaline not endorphins. If people are arguing about bolts it isn't even a pleasant way to hang with friends.
So why do I not argue for going to areas just to bitch in front of people about the bolts? Because them I may go to areas where people have come to an accommodation and bitching then is destructive.
Have you noticed that the problem nearly always erupts
when the rate at which bolts are going in is high?
That is the characteristic that crops up again and again. And it does so because no attempt at accommodation is being made. Accommodation takes time. So finally we have come to the real reason for this fight.
People are being denied a say in the way a shared resource is being used.
When bolts are being pulled out to make way for via ferratas we will still have the same argument and for the same reason. The technology will just be different.
Bob:
About the gunks. Do me a favor. Pretend for a moment you have responsibility for managing that place and stand in front of a mirror and read your posts. Nobody listening, eh?
Ultimately:
I will never understand how such intelligent, energetic, and wonderfully talented people have sunk this low in this stupid problem. I have seen what you people can do. You can be so awesome it is almost scary.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 12, 2008 - 06:22am PT
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Even the bolted anchors in the Gunks have created problems.There is an epidemic of toproping at what is arguably the most trad friendly crag imaginable.
Grid bolting exists Bob.Look at the photo Wes posted,see the draws below the route the guy is hanging on?
I can't imagine the Gunks without a bolt ban.At first a route every twenty feet,until some well meaning person starts putting them in between...
Some bolting(nationally) seemed like a good idea,unfortunately what we did not see coming,I did not see anyway,is the drills.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 12, 2008 - 08:45am PT
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Each area evolves it's own nuance, and ethics
there is no 'one size fits all'
I've climbed at Penitente. It's a fragile place, I'm glad for the campground, and the portapotties. The sport nature seems to compliment the area. Great for families, though if you have kids be alert for buzz worms.
I have never climbed in Dresden, but I admire the hell out of their ethic! Keep crowbars at the ready.
A great side by side scenario is in South Dakota. the runout Needles and the top down Rushmore area. Spend a day in each and savor the disparate zen... two different disciplines.
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Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
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May 12, 2008 - 09:39am PT
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Great post Todd. Many of those comments come from folks who have never established a route.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 12, 2008 - 10:25am PT
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Here's another twist on the "locals" issue, the beating death of surfer Emery Kauanui Jr. in La Jolla, allegedly by 5 other surfers, members of a "group" calling itself the Bird Rock Bandits, BRB. Apparently the BRB enforced "local rights" to the Windansea break off La Jolla, using physical intimidation to keep non-locals out of "their" territory.
'"We are a community of well-educated, family-oriented people," the local paper, La Jolla Light said in an editorial. "How can it happen here?"'
Surf break is spatial-temporal construct which depends on many natural conditions to conspire to create a surfable area. These areas can sustain only a limited number of surfers during ideal conditions.
Who decides which surfers get to surf? Who should decide?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/us/12surfer.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
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