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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 29, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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Long before Wes was even Futurespunk there was Bob Kamps. He was a thoughtful fellow and had this to say back in 1965.
The last sentence is well worth pondering. A life emptied of consequence is hardly richer for the trade. Mr. Kamps was good for climbing...With all of your peevish and petulant harbinging, Wes, can you say the same by extension?
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 29, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
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Great article Steve! Heres a quote I like from Johnny Dawes in the Climbing mag I saw today.
"Unless it feels impossible, its just a sport. If it's impossible then it's not a sport - it's an internal adventure and an external adventure. When the internal and the external adventure plaque together beautifully, there is a spark of recognition between the invisible and the visible that sets your heart alive." Johnny Dawes
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Sep 29, 2007 - 06:14pm PT
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I am too old and fat, but I think it would be great if somebody put up a bolt ladder on Cerro Torre so more people could do it.
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Sep 29, 2007 - 09:32pm PT
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Competition among others is a bottomless pit.
Stand up to your own fears & climb for yourself.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Sep 30, 2007 - 11:35am PT
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Those of you who argue the need for routes with 'risk' are being dishonest.
You can get the risk anywhere simply by free soloing existing routes or leaving long X runouts when you place protection. The thing that really drives your arguement is being able to say (sometimes only to yourself) 'I can climb that and 95% of climbers cannot'. By climbing that X rated route you get a feeling of superiority. You NEED to be able to do something others cannot. Sad that you need to risk your life to feel important.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 30, 2007 - 12:31pm PT
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This is getting funny. In the Boulder area there are thousands of well protected sport and gear climbs that anyone can climb and feel safe.
What's the problem with leaving a few bold/risk routes (Perilous Journey, Jules Verne etc..) as a testimony to that person skill and commitment during the FA ascent?
Should Realization have bolts every two feet so the general climbing public can aid it????
Wes...should your beloved boulder problems have bolt on holds so that some gym rat can feel entitlement to them??
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 30, 2007 - 01:09pm PT
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Wes wrote: I'm talking about the insignificant routes that never get done because they are X or R.
Wes if they are so insignificant...why care or worry about them??
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 30, 2007 - 01:10pm PT
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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em think. One simple question for you ego free drill saints. Does your climbing have any value or consequence beyond your own experience? A yes or no is all that I am after here.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 30, 2007 - 01:20pm PT
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Steve...YES!
Just go the Smith Rocks, Shelf Rd, Rummey and other sport areas.
People are having FUN!!
Climbing has and will continue to evolve...I'm glad I have had the chance to watch the show.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Sep 30, 2007 - 01:28pm PT
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I have acknowledged the need for the bold/risk routes. I have not suggested retro-bolting anything.
I originally asked if there is a reasonable arguement for not replacing two pitons that protect from a 70/80 foot groundfall (and have been in place for 20 to 40 years) with modern bolts. The R and X rating on the route would remain, the climber would just have a bit more confidence in case of a fall from above the gear. The one or two 5.8 moves on the route are above the gear.
There has been a lot of climbing/risk philosophy discussed and I have been drawn in to some of that. I have mixed feelings about 'museum' climbs because I agree with some of the arguements on both sides.
Of those who addressed my original question, the opinions seem to be about evenly divided among those who say leave the pins alone and those who say replace with bolts, but no overwhelmingly convincing arguement on either side IMHO.
The Needles has some 'used to be signifcant' routes that are no longer climbed, and some 'used to be significant' old,bold route setters who no longer climb the routes.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 30, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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Hammer- According to climbers that have far more experience than yourself, there is other protection to be had on the Needles Eye to back up the horrific historical pitons. Based on that information, be clear that you are/were advocating adding several unnecessary bolts to THE area classic. Period. Still no answer as to why you feel the need to express yourself in that fashion without reasonable cause.
Wes- You can enjoy those neglected routes and leave them intact by simply top-roping unless you are just too feckless and lazy to make the effort. You still haven't committed to any specific route or course of action, so your position doesn't really amount to much more than a bunch of self-involved drivel.
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fairweather
Mountain climber
Roseville, CA
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Sep 30, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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Even though I somewhat agree with Wes on this thread, I've still got to side with Steve, because I like his comment about Wes's position being a bunch of self-involved drivel. Sorry Wes, I just can't get past your politics.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 30, 2007 - 04:57pm PT
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I've put up a handful of routes. All sport routes, most of them top down.
The best one I've done is a retro bolt of a bullshit aid climb on some super shitty rock. Don't know what the grade was, don't know who did the FA, don't know if it had a name. I saw the line, saw a couple old bolts and some rusty angles that came out in my hand. The thing was abandoned, probably hadn't seen more than 1 ascent based on the amount of loose rock I cleaned. I did not try to locate the FA.
I sport bolted it on rappel. And now it is a fabulous route. Don't feel any remorse, I'm actually rather proud of the route.
This is NOT to say that I think everything should be retroed, but this one was total bullshit and now it's a cool climb. There's plenty of history on noteworthy routes, we don't need to savor every scrap of history on lame routes.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 30, 2007 - 05:10pm PT
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"FA party has a right to dictate how everyone else climbs a forgotten route because they were there first? "
Change the question mark to an exclamation and you'll be correct,
for a change.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 30, 2007 - 06:17pm PT
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Wes wrote: Although from this point on you will be seen as an aggressive retro-bolter who wants 30+ bolts on B-Y...
No he won't...he is just someone who didn't make the effort to contact the FA party.
Wes...there seems to be a consensus with most climbers to respect the effort and style of the FA party.
Contacting the FA party and showing a little respect goes a long way in getting what you want.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2007 - 01:29am PT
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10 million? huh?
They must all be here in the Valley right now. There's no more room.
The walls are choked, it's a human disaster, a flood of humanity trying to escape the perils of the soul killing modern technology. Yosemite Valley the savior.
Then! I saw ....
There was one guy with a nut he picked up off the Southern Pacific train tracks in Merced. He slung it with some cord and threw it in a crack for protection from a sure disaster on his way to the rim.
Hallelujah, we are saved again.
Maybe .....
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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OK, all you guys favoring the FA party having the last word. The...THE... FA individual would like to see the two Pitons that he placed on the Needles Eye replaced with modern bolts, (check the Needles Eye thread) his second disagrees, I say he was first, he placed the pins, he gets his way.
He is far away, will not likely come to the Needles to do the deed so I'm volunteering.
NOT adding 'several' pins Steve, replacing two suspect old pins with two bolts. All those 'more experienced' climbers are wrong, they're backing up bad pins with bad gear in bad rock...three bads doesn't make a good, and they're not climbing the 'classic' route if they don't just clip the pins with no back ups so what are you protecting but a memory. And, I'm willing to bet they routinely climb .11's and harder so big deal they can hang it all out on a 5.8.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Hammer, if you act as you keep threatening to do, your longterm contribution appears likely to be starting a bolt war on one of the most iconic climbs in the Needles. You've found lukewarm or less support on the Topo despite hammering away relentlessly day after day. Certainly nothing like a consensus. Drilling those bolts is your mission, you've made that clear, and no one can stop you from drilling on Needle's Eye or anywhere else. Nor can you stop someone else from chopping, after which more bolts could be drilled, and chopped, and so on, with results visible even from the parking lot you keep mentioning. There's your legacy.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Does the first ascent climber have the right to change/maintain his route or not???
Apparently, only if you agree with him.
I'm not interested in a 'legacy'.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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I'm not interested in a 'legacy'.
You're spinning, not listening.
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