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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Jun 10, 2018 - 10:26am PT
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DMT and RGold,
I think this is a valid consideration and my earlier comments on simul climbing with at least one or two "belay quality" anchors were based on this premise.
In fairness, we don't know and may never know if these two did or didn't have decent anchors between them and whether or not the rope was cut over a sharp edge.
With respect to this tragedy, we're all free to choose our level of risk exposure.
Given the apparent dedication and rigour these two generally demonstrated, I'd like to think that if they could speak to us from across the divide, they'd want us to examine this catastrophe and learn from it.
Sincerely,
PB
p.s., Osprey, that tune is going on my set list.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 10, 2018 - 11:29am PT
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In fairness, we don't know and may never know if these two did or didn't have decent anchors between them and whether or not the rope was cut over a sharp edge.
Interesting. If indeed they had decent anchors the gear will still be up there.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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Jun 10, 2018 - 11:35am PT
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Would there be any way to tell whether the rope was severed near the initial fall, or hundreds of feet below?
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Jun 10, 2018 - 11:45am PT
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Both are valid questions to which we may never know the answers.
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Clatterstan
Trad climber
High Desert, Ca
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Jun 10, 2018 - 02:51pm PT
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I'm saddened by this tragedy. I've read the trip reports and local (AV Press) newspaper stories about Wells and Klein over the years.
The fifth paragraph of the eye witness recount of the accident provides some answers and others may interpret the initial halt of the fall as the rope momentarily snagging on outcroppings or pro pulling-out.
An earlier post mentioned gear found on the ground. Many climbers use distinctive markings to separate their pro from their partner's rack. Assume accident investigators have examined them.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 10, 2018 - 03:39pm PT
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A longer fall can easily result in a cut rope with a consequent fatality, regardless of whether one is speed climbing, simul-climbing, or just doing a route in a more traditional way. There is not enough information about this particular incident to know exactly what took place. I believe that many years ago, Chounard took a fall in the Tetons that was nearly an entire rope length, but he was none the worse for it. My point is that a rope being cut per se, is difficult to anticipate or prevent.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 11, 2018 - 05:34am PT
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The SFC article was much clearer and better written. It’s clear he thinks Jason fell first and Tim was pulled off and that there was likely no pro - and no mention of a bag. A plausible and likely picture is presented. I could have done without the mass group risk taking instagram sponsership nonsense by Ken, and it’s clear the author is not much of a climber himself, but whatever. Everyone who goes up there has their own unique and complex set of reasons.
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JerryA
Mountain climber
Sacramento,CA
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Jun 11, 2018 - 06:56am PT
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The SF Chronicle article by Peter Firmrite is the one of best climbing explained to the general public I've read since Michael Ybarra's death in 2012.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Jun 11, 2018 - 07:21am PT
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from the sfc article:
Yager said the accident illustrates a growing problem in Yosemite and other premier climbing spots where enthusiasts, backed by advertising and sponsorships, often are more interested in fast climbing and spine-tingling risks than the transcendental feeling one gets on a wilderness excursion.
The lure of sponsorship money is pushing the masters of the sport to put themselves at greater peril, he said. A case in point, at least where risk is concerned, is Honnold, who last June climbed a route known as Freerider, which includes the area where the recent accident occurred, without any ropes or protection.
Honnold spent three hours and 59 minutes scaling the nearly vertical 3,000-foot granite face knowing that a single slip, missed handhold or unforeseen incident would result in certain, gruesome death. He is among a long line of Yosemite daredevils who have deals with equipment manufacturers or advertisers that market images of them scaling dangerous-looking rock faces.
“These guys have gotten physically more fit and are pushing limits. Back in my day it was us and the rock. You had no distractions,” Yager said. “Nowadays the climbers are posting on social media, there is a lot of interaction with crowds in the valley, and these professional climbers are dependent on doing something new all the time so they can keep their sponsorships and make money. It’s a very dangerous game.”
The concern is not just for people like Honnold — whose nerve and skill borders on superhuman — but for the young climbers who inevitably try to follow in their footsteps.
“The part that bothers me the most is the younger guys who see these guys and try to emulate them,” said Charles “Butch” Farabee, of Tuscon, a former Yosemite ranger who co-wrote the book “Off the Wall: Death in Yosemite,” and keeps a database of all 1,839 deaths that have occurred in the park. “I’ve never had any issue with people climbing, the part that concerns me is putting the rescuers at risk. Somebody has to go up and clean up the mess.”
so much bullshIt in this section...
in other parts of the article, their own stats contradict the conclusions in the lines proceeding...
i get that this is what the press sometimes does: speak authoritatively on things they don’t understand due to finding “experts” that speak authoritatively on things they don’t understand...
and i also get that the rest of the article regarding the accident itself does seem to be better than this part...
but to laud the article as a whole?
personally can’t do it, given all of the unsubstantiated, emotionally driven, non-participant based horse shIt quoted above.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 11, 2018 - 07:32am PT
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Au contraire....I think that there are some interesting thoughts espoused in the paragraphs you present above...certainly, none of them seem “emotionally driven.”
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2018 - 07:36am PT
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One of the core issues of this whole shebang is to look closely at the charge - mentioned in the linked newspaper article - that the motivation for these speed ascents derives from "daredevils" seeking notoriety enabling them to earn an income to enjoy celebrity status, a comfortable family life, Sprinter vans etc.
I've always resisted this charge believing that the do-it-for-fame-and-money charge was simplistic, that the players would be doing the same thing without the social media jive and the sponsorship dollars.
Money and fame was not the initial motivator for people like Tommy and Alex to start climbing. The idea is absurd, at least to me. But perhaps the issue needs to looked at in a slightly different light, with a fresh set of eyes, if that's possible, given recent accidents. Unless we are pleased or satisfied with the way things are trending, failure to reevaluate the situation would amount to denial. None of this will or should be settled by anyone on the sidelines, and that's where I am for sure. But it's a plain fact that the fallout is grave and is not leading in a direction that promises less of the same.
Is that ok with the participants? Is it fair for us in the peanut gallery to ask?
I'm not sure, but there's no question that some adventure sport events have accepted a degree of death and carnage so long as the show goes on. Case in point is the Isle of Man TT motorcycle race, where death is simply part of the bargain, a bargain that both the racers and the huge annual crowd willingly accept. Are we fine with that? There's no denying that this is happening. But it always has in adventure sports. People get hurt. What makes speed climbing any different than what's always gone on? Or is this a matter of acceptable degrees. Is there a line beyond which the activity becomes a grim caricature of itself. All I know is that something feels wrong, seems to go cross grain to what feels valuable and real. I also accept that the sport has passed me by and that I don't get, at depth, what is really going on, but I'm open to hear what that is,knowing that nobody owes me an explanation.
That seems to be where we are with all this. Basically the same place wingsuiters found themselves a few years ago.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:07am PT
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Au contraire...
Ditto. Donini you beat me to it.
As far as it went, this was a good write-up. The criticism above is completely unfounded, imo.
C'mon, there was a lot of content to the piece besides the use of "daredevils."
Money and fame was not the initial motivator for people like Tommy and Alex to start climbing. The idea is absurd, at least to me.
No one's claiming it was the INITIAL motivator.
But perhaps the issue needs to be looked at closer in light of recent accidents.
Good point. Which is what's been taking place here and elsewhere. A sharing of opinions, sentiments. In light of all these new developments to the sport having these conversations and having access to them is a good thing.
"it's a plain fact that the fallout is grave and is not leading in a direction that promises less of the same... Is it fair for us in the peanut gallery to ask? "
Are we fine with that?
re: the asking, opining...
Personally I am. I am fine with this mix of values and opinions in these adventure sports. But others, as reflected by their posts, I don't think so. In this regard, nah000 and kingtut, from opposing poles, come to mind.
We're not all cut from the same cloth. In these conversations we need to keep this mind, imo.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Witness-to-death-plunge-of-2-climbers-on-El-12982924.php
Alas, it'ss too bad we can't have Dan Osman's thoughts on all these developments, eh
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:26am PT
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donini wrote: "certainly, none of them seem “emotionally driven.”"
exhibit a: "enthusiasts, backed by advertising and sponsorships, often are more interested in fast climbing and spine-tingling risks than the transcendental feeling one gets on a wilderness excursion."
exhibit b: "The lure of sponsorship money is pushing the masters of the sport to put themselves at greater peril"
exhibit c: "The part that bothers me the most is the younger guys who see these guys and try to emulate them"
all three of these statements [which make up the meat of the argument in that section] were made by non-participants in the speed climbing game and as far as i know they are not based on intimate knowledge of the psyche and decision making processes/motivators of those currently playing that game.
ergo: when stated unequivocally, as they were... they are emotionally driven bullshIt.
now, to be clear, if these statements had been posed as questions, as Largo does above, then fair enough. we certainly do, as the consuming public, need to be asking: are we contributing to an environment where people might push themselves in ways that they might not do if we [the consuming public] hadn't created the incentives?
good and fair question... and one we should ask both ourselves as consumers, as well as the participants in this game.
but, to stand on the sidelines and chirp with unequivocal statements regarding the motivators of others, without having intimate knowledge of said motivators, is as boring, wrong and as old as climbing itself...
were the early british, in part Times of London funded, everest expeditions driven primarily by the cash?
was bachar driven to solo because of the sweet, sweet That's Incredible money [along with all of his other sponsors]?
and more recently was steck driven to keep doing what he did because of EFG Private Banking, Air-Lux windows, and SssangYong motor vehicles [and yes, among a host of others, these were his largest backers]?
the short answer is i don't know.
climbing has always had a complex relationship between pushing the envelope and money/fame.
and so with all due respect to my elders: i'm sure old dudes on the sidelines have also always spoken with certainty about things they no longer have intimate knowledge about.
i've got no issue with questions being asked.
they absolutely should be asked.
but, speaking as someone who dabbles in the speed climbing and speed ski mountaineering game and could give two shIts about fame or money from this endeavor, to speak authoritatively and conclusively by saying such things as "enthusiasts.....often are more interested in fast climbing and spine-tingling risks than the transcendental feeling one gets on a wilderness excursion" is to speak absolute and unadulterated horse shIt.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:27am PT
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The point, fruity, implied by the newspaper article, and countless others like it, is that motivation is in part derived from professionals having to keep upping the bar to retain sponsorship.
This is a tricky one to unpack because speed climbing is practiced by a wide demographic from sponsored folk to others working day jobs and climbing when they can. But one can start to understand the corner some sponsors felt themselves in when all those wingsuiters kept going in. At the time I felt the sponsors were cowardly and hypocritical for yanking their sponsorship, and I still do.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:37am PT
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Commonly casting accident victims as "doing something else for other reasons" than yourself - which is exactly what is happening here - spare me this Instagram sponsorship voodoo heady intellectualized BS - it's really just plain old dissociation.
The cold fact is you commonly do exactly the same thing, are likely worse and less experienced at it, and can't face the reality of your own probability of dying just like they did.
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Trump
climber
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:47am PT
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I’ve always loved and been inspired by that iconic media distributed photo of westbay, bridwell, and long taken after their speed climb of el cap 45 years ago. I’m inclined to forgive both the followers and the leaders for being humans, whether they’re doing their leading and following things yesterday or today.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:49am PT
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In any sport, or human activity. "Setting" the record is setting it for others to note.
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Anyone arguing that point does so at their own peril.
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