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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 19, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
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Oh, I don't think I really understood your question. I guess I think the best way to support those women is to support women's health resources (so like, Planned Parenthood in our own country; I know less about women's health initiatives abroad, but this is making me realize I should). I think that giving women control over when/where they want a kid is a huge step toward autonomy.
One basic question is - if a majority of women are happy, or accepting at least, of roles in society that feminists are trying to eliminate as a standard, is that not an attempt to control women I think the easiest answer here is to return to the point about "equality of choice." Feminism should not be used as an excuse to insult women who care a lot about their appearance, or women who choose to be caregivers, or any other classically feminine thing (or men who do those things).
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
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But seriously, I do question the legitimacy of feminism when it judges vast numbers of women to be sexist against women. One basic question is - if a majority of women are happy, or accepting at least, of roles in society that feminists are trying to eliminate as a standard, is that not an attempt to control women in a similar way to what they vilify "the patriarchy" for supposedly doing? Kevin, I think Cat already stated that the Patriarchal notion is not necessarily one of men per se.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
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I don't think that reaching out to the women in the Balkans as change agents was limited to their self-determination in childbearing, Cat.
It goes deeper than that. See my previous post, 2 up, from 6:13 PM.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 06:35pm PT
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And yes, I see I am going for bigger grab here. Vis-ŕ-vis the Balkans and mediation through women.
Primarily what you were doing, Kevin, was trying to argue the deconstruction of the patriarchal model. But again, I think she has already posited that it's more a sociopolitical state of mind than an attribute of man per se.
[edit] Ha ha. Our posts came out at nearly the same time. Good one, Kev. No, I'm just suggesting that we define our terms, notwithstanding your Definition just above.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 19, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 19, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
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Hahaha.
You are killing me with those click throughs, Z!
[edit] Even now that I can see the R. Crumb ditties without clicking, you are still killing me with them! Ha ha
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 19, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
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Roy, I've always had this nebulous belief that "educating women is the way to move a society forward," but I'm not sure what that means practically, or if it is true at all. Maybe this is the same thing you're alluding to, maybe not, I'm really not sure what you're getting at?
Feminism is on a mission to accomplish equal rights for women, in spite of the fact that huge numbers of nearly silent women don't want the kind of equality feminists are pursuing.
I realize there's something horrifically condescending about looking at a group of people and saying, "they don't know they could have it better." It would be the height of arrogance for me to assume that any other woman should aspire to become a neuroscientist who gleefully hikes into the middle of nowhere and sleeps on the ground in order to climb stuff. I suppose it's equally arrogant for me to assume that I know that women would be better off if we all eschewed religion. But I do really believe that until women are able to control their own sexuality/reproductive health, they aren't being afforded a choice at all, and yeah, I do think I know better in that regard: I would fight against the wishes of conservative women if I could make sure their daughters received evidence-based sex education, and if that's imposing on their rights, I'm okay with doing it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
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Let's go get a beer, Kev, Cat,
Kev, you're still trying to deconstruct her feminist model, and I'm trying to ask her why she doesn't use it as a weapon in culture wars at large.
Your task is purely argumentative, Kev, and might actually be accomplished, while mine is a pollyanna kind of fool's errand to charge her with the task of changing the world.
Beer 30, pals!
[edit] Did that explain what I'm getting at, Cat? If you just say yes, then we can agree it's ridiculous, and I'll drop it! Haha.
Roy, I've always had this nebulous belief that "educating women is the way to move a society forward," but I'm not sure what that means practically, or if it is true at all Yes, Cat, I was alluding to this ^^^
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
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Good call! ^^^
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
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Z,
Man you are the hit-and-run fiend around here.
A gal has to stay extra frosty not to miss your offerings before you tear them down!
Cracks me up.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 19, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
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Did that explain what I'm getting at, Cat? If you just say yes, then we can agree it's ridiculous, and I'll drop it! Haha.
Ha, yes, I got it! As I said, I don't know if I...believe my own belief about salvation via education? Is it an idea that I formed purely based on stereotypes? Is it a belief I derived from some article I read about forward progress in societies where previously illiterate women are educated? Is it from a sappy inspirational movie? Or is it just true?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
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It's all of those things, Cat.
Like I said, I learned it from a woman who did mediation and conflict resolution in the Balkans 25 years ago.
To which her son, a venture capitalist friend of mine, said: Just because they [Conflict resolution people] have a hammer they think everything is a nail.
Here she is:
Merle Lefkoff, PhD:
https://www.upaya.org/people/bio/merle-lefkoff-phd
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Dr. Merle Letkoff is a whole systems change engineer whose practice is devoted to the transformation of traditional diplomatic negotiations through the testing and practice of complex systems thinking, the impact of neuroscience research on the mind and life, and re-enchantment with nature. Letkoff holds a doctorate in political science from Emory University and has been a mediator, facilitator, and leadership trainer in conflict zones around the world.
She believes there's a better way for nations to measure success than GDP, and it's time for the world to reconsider what we value.
Taking her research forward, she and her colleagues train women leaders and grassroots activists to use complexity thinking to allow a sacred space for non-violence, compassion, justice and equity to emerge. See, Cat? ^^^ I wasn't BS-ing.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
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Forget about it, Kev, you brute.
Cat wants to talk to me now. After all ... I'm the one in the white hat!
hahahahahahha!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 19, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
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May be Moby
May be Dick
Butt it ain't Moby Dick bein' written here.
Nuthin' to be preserved for posterity, though some of it appears to aspire to Melville's form of compensation
Take my wordz for it
For the less ass_pirational
We can't get no compensation
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Sep 19, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
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But women can't play blues with the feeling men can
[Click to View YouTube Video]
In all fairness, Danielle usually plays the bass
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 19, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
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Stop all this weeping, swallow your pride, you will not die, it's not poison
Hubert preached not only to the choir, but to anyone within earshot
But, just like everyone has to do he shuffled off his mortal coil
YMMV?
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L
climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
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Sep 19, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
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Well, I just finished a delightful dinner with my hubby and thought I'd peek in on this neuron-titillating thread...and what do I find?
Feminism is on a mission to accomplish equal rights for women, in spite of the fact that huge numbers of nearly silent women don't want the kind of equality feminists are pursuing.
So Kevin...do you actually know what the definition of feminism is? I mean, like from a dictionary, not a cartoon?
Never mind--here ya go, from Merriam-Webster:
feminism
noun fem·i·nism \ ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm \
Definition of feminism
1 :the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 :organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
— feminist \ˈfe-mə-nist\ noun or adjective
— feministic \ˌfe-mə-ˈni-stik\ adjective
First Known Use: 1895
FEMINISM Defined for Kids
noun fem·i·nism \ ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm \
1 :the belief that women and men should have equal rights and opportunities
2 :organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
That's it. Simple, isn't it. Equal rights and opportunities.
Feminism is the belief that women and men should have equal rights and opportunities.
You, however, appear to use the word as a smoking gun with rounds still chambered, and you point it at any woman (or man, for that matter) who advances the thought of equality of the sexes.
My heart tells me that you've perhaps gone through a difficult period where relationships are concerned, and right now you're reacting from that in a way you normally would not. But I don't know you in the slightest, and can only guess at your motivations.
What I'd like to ask you though is this:
How can you, a father of a 13 year old daughter, a beautiful, athletic girl who cartwheels through the fields of flowers, how can you NOT be a feminist?
How can you not want for your daughter all the liberties and opportunities and advantageous circumstances that generations of women (and some men) have fought so hard for?
How can you claim to know what "feminism" truly is and not thank the stars above that your little girl is growing up in an age where her choices are so unlimited compared to even 10 years ago?
Speaking from the memory of a 12 year old, my father wanted the world for me, and he tried his best to give it to me. He filled me with dreams of success and ignited my desire for adventure, and he repeatedly told me I could do and be anything I wanted. Anything.
You seem like the sort of man who would want as much for his own daughter.
But I don't really know you, so perhaps I'm mistaken.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 08:44pm PT
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L,
Did you by any chance follow the tangential issue which I was raising concerning empowering women, which is part of the model which Merle Lefkoff uses in her work?
She's a fascinating woman.
It's in the post on the previous page: Sep 19, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
Take a look at her Ted talk.
I think if you look at her training and efforts and philosophy and approach, it's like ecofeminism 3.0.
A quick excerpt:
Taking her research forward, she and her colleagues train women leaders and grassroots activists to use complexity thinking to allow a sacred space for non-violence, compassion, justice and equity to emerge.
It may not be as pressing as arguing with Kevin ... But ...
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