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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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HealyJ
Grid bolting doesn't begin to describe where I climb, Yosemite and TM mostly. There are no restictions on bolt except they must be hand drilled.
And of course the community general standards. If something is too out of line, it will be removed.
Works Ok here even though we have wars from time to time. That 's likely to be the way it will play out in the future. There's nothing to stop somebody from turning a death route on Daff Dome into an R or a PG except community standards and peer pressure.
Peace
karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Greg,
Ironically I'm here in Oregon - sport climbing central. But, the Gunks and Eldo come to mind right off the bat as places that are well protected - one by private land managers and the other by public ones. And from what I've seen around the country there are few places where there isn't a dramatic amount of sport routes going up and bolting going on unless they are in private hands or being protected by strict climbing management plans. Outside of a few places I can think of like the Valley, North Carolina, or Cathederal/Cannon where locals keep things honest my perception is most of the places being protected form ergious sport bolting are those places under the purvey of well-developed climbing management plans and most of those got 'well-developed' after significant bolt skirmishes or other significant threats to climbing. I'm not saying I'm right, but I'd love to see what the stats looks like for the total number of new bolts being installed annually for the past twenty years and can guess how steep the curve of that graph might be. Where should I believe are all those new bolts going?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Weschrist - sorry, you're wrong and we'll have to agree to disagree. As I just said, your "botched FA's" would quickly become "Bosched FA's" if they exhibited any significant runouts and folks like you had their way. You have relentlessly promoted safe climbing at every turn. One can only guess how you define "risk", but let's not now claim that isn't the case. And to be honest, given we can't seem to get any sense as to whether you've ever put up an FA, it's hard to even guess your real 'standing' to be playing the strident devil's advocate here. You certainly carry water for the risk-free climbing and what you let slip tells me you do so honestly with a deeply held conviction climbing should be safe.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Bummer that you see things that way healyje - for me, I see most rock untouched by anyone, some sport crags developed (mostly close to the road), respect for ground-up route development, respect for the FA regardless of how the route was done, and restraint from gridbolting even in sport climbing centers like Owens.
But then again, this area has a whole hell of a lot of rock. A lot of these arguments seem to be based on areas with limited rock.
Your view is scary to me - I would never look to land management agencies to regulate anything intelligently, despite the best efforts of the many good people employed by such agencies.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Greg,
So you think Eldo is being managed badly? I'm not saying that land managers are doing a great job outside of a few select venues - I'm saying I'd rather see them managing trad areas before seeing them bolted and the attending bolt wars that would erupt once again otherwise. And yes, the West has more untapped rock than the Midwest or East. But even here outside of a few folks marching column by column down a hundred thousand splitters in central Oregon almost all the new development is sport.
Again, my views may be misanthropic and extreme, but while rooted in a LNT and trad heritage they have less to do sport climbing per se and more to do with the exponential numbers of climbers enabled by it. Let's not kid ourselves, the real access problem is the sheer numbers, not behavior. Sorry, I just don't think 'more is better' when it comes to our population.
And I consider extrapolating forward based on the view in the rearview mirror to be a fairly valid activity and, again, where are all the new bolts going? Ten or twenty years out how many via ferratas will there be in the U.S.? How many competitive High School climbing teams? How many gyms? How many more Ignorant Blisses? How many more bolt wars? Maybe I'm just a pessimist and everything will turn out fine - but in this case I'll wait and see before I believe it.
[ Edit: It would be an interesting experiment to simply open up Laurel Knob with absolutely no fixed pro restrictions and see what happens... ]
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Weschrist, you're right, my contrast control is clearly broken because when I see 'reducing X routes to R or PG' all I see is the very definition and top of the steep slope of gridbolting. We clearly have different adrenaline thresholds, who knows, maybe we like the same beer.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Adding protection bolts to established runout horror shows is the same thing as removing bolts from routes deemed too cushy. Whatever is there has been said. Leave it alone, make your statement on your own FA, if you can. If you can't, then go climbing. Editing someone else's route is not a valid option.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jaybro wrote
"Adding protection bolts to established runout horror shows is the same thing as removing bolts from routes deemed too cushy. Whatever is there has been said. Leave it alone, make your statement on your own FA, if you can. If you can't, then go climbing. Editing someone else's route is not a valid option."
Just so you're clear, does that mean we should chop the bolts on the changing corners pitch on the Nose or just disapprove?
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Wes - "All you see is what you want you are willing to see. "
As I have said earlier, you are free to go out and do what you will. When you have done it I can see what you are about, and I can offer you a judgement at that time. Maybe I'll even change my mind. But all this chatting on the ST Forum is just that, talk is cheap, put your convictions into play and let the community judge for itself.
In climbing I'd say there are no rules chissled into stone. There are not immutable laws. There is no absolute right or wrong, good or bad.
There is action, and reaction. The FA of even a botched route is action...
this is all talk...
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Greg Barnes
climber
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"So you think Eldo is being managed badly?" I have no idea, never climbed east of Castleton tower. I'm basing my view on many years of both climbing and non-climbing-related issues in the west.
I don't think things are nearly as bad as you seem to think. There don't seem to be more climbers around the areas I go than there were 10 years ago (OK, definitely more boulderers...). I can still go do super-classic easy routes like Monkey's Face, Royal Arches, and Fairview Dome, even on weekends. The sport climbing areas have more people on easy routes but fewer people on harder routes (hard being only 5.10+ and up) than 10 years ago.
A lot of people said the same thing with mountain biking - hordes, crowds, resource degradation - then the fad crashed and mountain biking just isn't the hot thing anymore.
Even sport climbing is scary and dangerous for the gym crowd - and gyms are scary for most folks. I just don't think climbing will ever get to be that popular. People are afraid of heights.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Hopefully John will forgive me for cross posting this quip from a post of his on the 'runout' thread, but it fairly succinctly sums the whole "Bosched FA's" topic.
Largo: "The idea that all climbs are supposed to be "safe," meaning anyone has a right to try them with no consequence if they muff it, is a relatively new one, born from sport climbing's clip and go protection. In our time, "safety" was mostly a matter of what a leader had betwen his ears and between his legs--mental control and sack. In other words, a leader took full responsibility for his actions out on the sharp end. And if things went wrong, he didn't blame others for not considring, thirty five years prior, that he might get up there and fly off. "
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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“Climbing is inherently dangerous and the risk of death or serious injury can never be completely eliminated. It is up to each individual to make his or her own choices regarding acceptable risk.” - Disclaimer
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Largo wrote "Adding protection bolts to established runout horror shows is the same thing as removing bolts from routes deemed too cushy."
then Hedge wrote "Which I have no problem with either.'
I have problems with both, unless the routes are extreme.
At the extreme bolted end, the routes already get chopped around here. On the other side, if a route is in the 5.10 or below range and only gets's climbed once every 10-20 years or less, then I hardly even consider it "established" and it belongs in the inappropriate range of the over-bolt- botched job.
peace
Karl
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I heard a joke this morning that somehow seems appropriate:
"If someone scares the hell out of you, shouldn't you be thankful?"
Buzz
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Murf
climber
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Okay, we can agree to disagree, if for no other reason than the fact that you simply refuse to accept the difference between reducing X routes to R or PG and gridbolting. Enjoy your black and white world view.
The FA Tradition is basically a barrier to chaos. I think most understand that, and the comment, "Only one person is happy with the lowest common denominator", sort of personifies it.
Wes, you want to increase fixed protection to some level you, or some consensus you want to build, decide. The problem is when the next person decides that you were incorrect in your consensus and decides to refix it, to her level. Are you going to confront this next person who decides to fix your fixed route?
I've never run out of routes that I felt capable of doing. Why would I need to modify existing routes? There's plenty out there to do myself if I'm so driven.
Wes you seem to feel this issue so ardently. What routes specifically do you wish to fix? I've read a whole lot of posturing out of you, but very little specific info.
Murf
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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The FA Tradition is basically a barrier to chaos....
Well put, and I think weschrist realises this.
...I've read a whole lot of posturing out of you, but very little specific info.
That's because he's bored and just stirring the pot.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Healyje,
I have to respond about Eldo and say that community based bolting bans are not the answer to preserving traditional ethics. Eldo has been dumbed down considerably in the last 10 years, and every year we see multiple applications for bolted anchors to "make it safer". I think the only thing that is going to preserve a traditional ethic are the people right here who have strong enough convictions to stand up to the "Safety Police".
As I see it in climbing we all have choices, and our own personal style. I think we should all try to respect each other because in time opinions change. Those advocating safetification might in time come to respect run-outs, but guess what.....it might be too late. The important thing is to realize that we are just one (actually more) generation of climbers with our own ideas of right and wrong. Tomorrow there will be another generation with it's own ideas. If you are really passionate about maintaining a traditional ethic the best thing you can do is share/teach someone from the next generation.
As I came into climbing from a sport climbing backround I used to HATE runout slabs, but now that is one of my favorite types of climbing. It is amazing how your perspective can change over a decade. After you have been climbing long enough, difficulty alone is not enough to keep the fire going, and you turn to adventure climbing to find your Zen.
Climbing itself is a individualistic persuit, and as such will always attract people with polar opposite points of view. Let's try to respect and celebrate those differences vs. condemning them. There is room in this world for many different points of view.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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"...I've never run out of routes that I felt capable of doing. Why would I need to modify existing routes? There's plenty out there to do myself if I'm so driven..."
Murf, I feel exactly the same way.
There's been a lot of talk about "sac" on this thread. Personally I think sometimes it can show more sac to bail off or walk away from some route, especially in front of others, than it would take to add some bolts.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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When I first when to do Jules Vernes I didn't look at the route as being a mistake for lack of protection...I wondered if I was good enoung to climb it the way Steve Wunsch did.
We need routes like Jules Vernes...to show us what some climbers are capable of doing when they put their mind and body to task.
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
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I have to respond about Eldo and say that community based bolting bans are not the answer to preserving traditional ethics. Eldo has been dumbed down considerably in the last 10 years, and every year we see multiple applications for bolted anchors to "make it safer".
Kevster - You are right on in this regard. The latest travesty being the new rap anchor on the West Face of the Wind Tower so people can avoid a 6 foot downclimb to the existing anchor....My suggestion of removing the unecessary upper anchor so that folks actually had to climb to the top was laughed at.
The reason we have this problem in Eldo "management" is that it's not really a true community based concensus and those in control (ACE and FHRC) are a good old boy club and they now have a little fiefdom they won't let go of. Try submitting your application to serve and see if you get selected. It aint going to happen unless you are "in the club". The general attitude of this club leads to more convenience anchors at the top of popular pitches and more and more convenience rap anchors.
I guess the upside of the current "management" plan is that most of the traffic gets placed on relatively few climbs, leaving the good stuff open for those of us who who don't need our "safety" decided by committe.
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