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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 14, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
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I've come to the same conclusion. I think the political conclusions we draw - or at least express - after this latest tragedy and outrage reflect our religious beliefs all too well.
So dump em. They're not needed.
Esp insofar as these religious beliefs are rooted in iron age superstition.
Of course, you have to give it some time, we are creatures of habit and cannot change on a dime. Esp re belief.
...
Locker, I'd say it was perhaps a majority but not a "vast majority" who don't really believe in a rock-solid sense. Thankfully, the percentages are falling though, thanks to the info age and the millenials.
It's that 33% minority (or whatever the percentage) that brings the havoc.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 14, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
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It is bigotry, pure and simple. Bigotry breeds hate, hate breeds violence.
Religion is an excuse, not a cause.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 14, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
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Religion is an excuse, not a cause. -Stalbro
Like "fear" I guess you have absolutely no experience growing up around fundamentalists.
The doctrines of religion ARE a cause. Get real.
Educate yourself in this matter before making such naive pronouncements.
It is bigotry, pure and simple.
In a religious context, that is right.
My God is better than your god. Burn him!
My Bible is truth, yours is not. Burn him!
That is our history. We need to change it.
It is changing.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 14, 2016 - 01:28pm PT
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Religions serve the cause of bigotry. They create a special class, that allows the members to feel superior.
Some people use their "education" in the same way.
Same as it ever was...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 14, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
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Same as it ever was...
Now you're sounding like Mr Smugs himself.
Look around. Change and progress are everywhere.
No it is not "same as it ever was."
Not for communications. Not for transportation. Not for institutions. Not for belief either.
My God is better than your god. Burn him!
My Bible is truth, yours is not. Burn him!
That is bigotry.
People - mostly religious and their fellow travelers like Smugs - who water down the term are obstructionists to problem solving and progress.
In Smugs' case, though, I think it's simple naivete in the subject matter.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 14, 2016 - 01:39pm PT
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It's been a while since they've burned Witches in Salem... -Locker
That's right.
Of course the analog in this century is the cancer in that other Abrahamic religion where they would certainly burn witches if they could find them but settle for smiting adulterers, apostates, blasphemers and homosexuals.
Where is the million man muslim march, btw? where there is this incredible opportunity right now for Muslims to show solidarity with the lgbt community and the world at large. I'm not seeing it.
"My God is the one true God." "Their words are blasphemy. Stone them."
That is bigotry.
...
Certainly this subject like politics makes for strange bedfellows.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 14, 2016 - 02:03pm PT
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They don't burn them (or mostly hang them) anymore. They massacre them with automatic weapons and throw them off of buildings. It still happens today.
I just finished reading the Salem Witch Trials: A Day-by-Day Chronicle of a Community Under Siege.
You would surprised by the parallels. It is not religion as much as fear, ignorance and greed. Religion justifies their heinous acts of violence.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 14, 2016 - 02:23pm PT
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"It is not religion as much as fear, ignorance and greed. Religion justifies their heinous acts of violence."...
You won't find me arguing with you on that one...
Neither I.
I'm perfectly happy calling it (i.e., fundamentalist Abrahamic religion whether C or I) ignorance, lack of education and /or mental illness (ref: God Delusion, by Dawkins) esp since this is the 21st century post-science not 15th century pre-science.
But then when you do that you still hear name-calling of bigotry, racism and hate not only from the religious (like Jody or Klimmer or Cragman) but from the Mr Smugs.
So, it's a tough row.
Even Stalbro above referenced "bigotry" in regards to education. Quite a stretch, imo.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 14, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
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Not at all.
My mom was a wonderful person, but she did look down on some people that did not have a sheepskin or two, regardless of their actions and capabilities. It was another form of bigotry.
Everyone has their foibles, you just need to acknowledge them.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 14, 2016 - 02:30pm PT
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Everyone has their foibles,
Oh I acknowledge that plenty. lol
Re: education... arrogance maybe. But "bigotry" is not apropos - not when it comes to education or science and esp insofar as what's being put forth is valid and accurate as well.
But let's remember, one's man's arrogance is another's confidence. It is a highly subjective thing.
Look how we just held, and still hold, Muhammad Ali in the highest regard. Wasn't nearly the case 40, 50 years ago.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 14, 2016 - 02:35pm PT
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It was another form of bigotry.
Well, to the extent it is "bigotry", it is a so-called "extended definition" and imo just confuses the conversation all the more. Its use of course makes religious devotees if not religious bigots happy because it deflects focus away from them.
By latest definition then, it could be applied just as well in the area of politics. Shall we now run around calling everybody bigots in politics, too?
Education as I believe it to be does not necessarily have to come by way of a degree or College...
I've always agreed with this.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 14, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
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I seriously doubt that any of us posting here will live long enough to see any real change for the better...
I think we might be a bit spoiled regarding that one.
I'm seeing change at lightning speed every day - albeit it's through a lot of noise.
....
I just finished reading the Salem Witch Trials: A Day-by-Day Chronicle of a Community Under Siege.
For dessert, you might check out The Crucible when you have the time.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 14, 2016 - 02:45pm PT
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People need to look at their more basic desires. "Progress" has piled layer upon layer of filters that allow people to deny their true nature and their true motivations. It is hard to cut through all the crap.
I include myself.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 14, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
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It is not religion as much as fear, ignorance and greed. Religion justifies their heinous acts of violence
But religion often causes or at least justifies the fear and ignorance.
Just speculating but it seems like the perp was a unstable closet case.
So he's unstable, our mental health programs should be better, which means more funding. Who cut the funding?
He's a closet case, I feel really sorry that so many people are born into that situation. A certain percentage of people have always been and always will be born gay. When you meet a lot of gay people you just know oh they're gay. It's not an act, they can't will themselves to be straight. And there's really nothing wrong with it. But when people believe that they will burn in hell because of that al sorts of problems arise. It's a rediculous, outdated notion from when straight men held all the power and claimed they were interpreting Gods will, when it fact it was their own prejudices.
Finally he was able to get a gun that in retrospect he shouldn't have had access to. I am for freedom and I'm okay with guns even of this type (even though many people who want these types of guns are the people who shouldn't have them, i.e. Gung ho yahoos) . I don't know the details but it seems like this was a failure of friends and coworkers to identify this guy as a problem. Unfortunately it may be that he never did anything bad enough to legally preclude him from getting a gun, so maybe there's nothing we could do there without restricting access for law abiding citizens. Criminals will always gets guns even if they are illegal, but there's a much greater chance a guy like this will have a deadlier gun if he can just legally buy it.
This is like sandy hook. Unfortunately we can't completely stop these types of senseless killings. But we can improve our mental health system. We can Speak out against bigotry and hatred. And we can do a better job keeping guns out of the wrong hands (which wouldn't stop attacks like this but could do a lot to limit the number of people killed).
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jun 14, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
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We need to help the sick...
and we NEED to UP the education level of the general population...
and it wouldn't hurt to spread the wealth a little more fairly...
say to the tune of $15.00 minimum wage...
+1
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 14, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
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this was a failure of friends and coworkers to identify this guy as a problem.
No it wasn't. Many of his co-workers complained that he was a ticking
time bomb but his superiors did nothing and the FBI did nothing, other
than waste time and money.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 14, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
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Laws are not fickle, they are usually quite specific. Interpretation is
fickle. While there MAY have not been sufficient evidence to do anything
he should NOT have been taken off the Terror Watchlist. Anybody with two
ounces of brains who read all the complaints and interviewed him should
have seen the logic of that.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 14, 2016 - 03:24pm PT
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Must be Testosterone Tuesday!!!???
What's up Fruitless did you do the double shot today? How about informing all us ignoramouses what injecting a synthsized Testosterone does for your mental stability?
Do you feel more confident? And I say "feel" because you obliviously didn't feel like you were measuring up when you decided to start injecting?
Did it reinstate your manly desires? Or was the desire always there, but your old tired body just lacked the luster?
Does your woman consider you a man now? Or likely you didn't even tell her
The scientific method by Fruity, if you don't quite FEEL up to par in this competive world, pop a pill. Ha.
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