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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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soo, your say'in when believers flock up they start shot'in everyone?
couldn't it be the opposite? when believers start hearding, the wolves circle for the kill?
BB Yea, you got me BB
WTF? are you talking about?
Herding???
Steve says NOooooooooo
And if you have the gumption, please interpret your post for the rest of us
I would also love to hear more about this "Accuser" and "Anti-Christ"
have they been in the news lately?
Can you post some links?
They have some part in this evolution scam, right?
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Lurkingtard
climber
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I think blue blocker is near'in the end of a 12er of natty ice
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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More facts to deny
Marriage and Family:
Zuckerman cites a 1999 Barna study that finds that atheists and agnostics actually have lower divorce rates than religious Americans.
He also cites another study, in Canada, that found conservative Christian women experienced higher rates of domestic violence than non-affiliated women.
Unprotected Sex:
As for Plante's claim that studies have "consistently " found that religious people are less likely to engage in unprotected sex, that claim is directly refuted by a 2009 study that found the reverse - teens who make religion-inspired "virginity pledges" are not only just as likely as their non-pledging peers to engage in premarital sex, but more likely to engage in unprotected sex.
Other Findings of Interest:
Happiness: The most secular nations in the world report the highest levels of happiness among their population.
Altruism: Secular nations such as those in Scandinavia donate the most money and supportive aid, per capita, to poorer nations. Zuckerman also reports that two studies show that, during the Holocaust, "the more secular people were, the more likely they were to rescue and help persecuted Jews."
Outlooks and Values: Zuckerman, citing numerous studies, shows that atheists and agnostics, when compared to religious people, are actually less likely to be nationalistic, racist, anti-Semitic, dogmatic, ethnocentric, and authoritarian. Secularism also correlates to higher education levels. Atheists and other secular people are also much more likely to support women's rights and gender equality, as well as gay and lesbian rights. Religious individuals are more likely to support government use of torture.
Torture!!!
wow, religious folks are more likely to support the Gov. use of Torturing our Political and Religious enemies!!!
Klimmer and Trump are all gung ho on torture, waterboarding is not even bad enough for these enemies that need to Suffer from our state sanctioned torture
I'm sorry, but we should never support torture, not in any circumstance,
isn't crucification one of the worst types of Torture?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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What do all of you anti-Christian posters think of Jimmy Carter's faith in Christ? How about President Obama's?
Are these men superstitious morons? Maybe just lying hypocrites?
Or do they get a pass for being on the right team?
What about 80% of the Democrats in Congress professing a faith in Christ?
Do they all get as pass, too?
Do political leanings separate the "good Christians" from the "bad Christians"?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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No one said there was anything wrong about being a Christian
as long as you don't deny basic facts that Christian fundamentalists will deny
Some Christians have been able to balance reality with faith.
Not sure what kind of religious test we can use to weed out the chaffe
Maybe Trump, who has done tremendous work when it comes to devising some of these religious tests
what should they test for
denial of God?
denial of mindless evolution?
boy it gets tricky fast, sure hope they don't test me.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Don't use politicans as an example, you must be aware that a politician who is truthful and says that he/she is a non-believer is unelectable. So it follows that the non-believers who are elected were less than truthful.....think Thomas Jefferson.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Think Bill Clinton. He and Tom have a few things in common.
On the Jimmy Carter note. Great American but I was more of a Billy (beer) fan.
Edit: +1 for grumpy cat
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jesus loves everyone, but white Americans more than others?
is Trump the second coming of Christ?
Most Republicans sure think so!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
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I'll try to sift through the other conversations and just answer questions or comments about my personal belief in Jesus. By all means, keep it going, it's just simpler for me to respond to questions instead of getting into debates.
void of religious beliefs can you:
Have a humanistic moral compass? YES
Have spirituality? YES
Love and forgive? YES
Achieve eternal life? Who knows?
Through Religious beliefs can you:
Have a humanistic moral compass? YES
Have spirituality? YES
Love and forgive? YES
Achieve eternal life? Who Knows?
Let Christians, let God be their master if they live well and let men/women be their own master if they live well.
I think that's a reasonable assessment. I do have a question if you don't mind a break in the format because I'm curious. What does "good" (or right, or anything like that) mean in the absence of any higher power? Just assume that my auto-response to you answer will be "why is that good?" Ex: I think anything that doesn't hurt people is good. My reply: Why is that good?
I'm not trying to diminish your view as I'm sure it's valid, I just want to understand what "good" means to people who believe only the material world exists and it's all atoms and electricity.
Feel free to ignore.
Did you know Jerry Lee Lewis and Jimmy Swaggert are cousins? I did not.
I do believe that a HUMAN BEING named Jesus may well have lived and preached about "GOD" and such...
I don't
there is no record, none, in the Roman archives of a man names Jesus being crucified
I do not believe that is an accurate statement (referring to the multiple posts about there not being any archaeological evidence for Jesus or anything in the bible). There is plenty of archaeological evidence for many of the people and places. But I do agree that there isn't any archaeological evidence for the miracles or conversations, that I know of (again, this is under the assumption that witnesses writing down their observations does not count as archaeological evidence). Then again, I am not holding my breath that we will find some water halfway turned into wine or something, nor can I think of any of Jesus' miracles that would leave evidence.
The church I grew up in believed they could change the weather, just for them, by praying. Do you have this level of faith? I believe that with faith, anything is possible (Matthew 17:20). But I also believe that we are to pray first for the will of God (Matthew 6:9-13), and that may not be the same as what we want (Matthew 26:39).
A couple of stories that I'm sure can be easily dismissed:
1) A missionary from Ecuador I heard used to go from the village to the airport, downstream, in a canoe with a gas motor to pick up people and supplies. It took about 1 gallon to get to the airport and 2 to get back upstream to the village. On one occasion she had two villagers with her but they accidentally only brought two gallons for the whole trip. On the way back upstream the engine ran out of gas and died. She became angry, stressed, and didn't know what to do to get back home before nightfall. The two guys with her suggested that the Jesus she talked about could help if they asked. She thought it was hopeless but they prayed and pulled the cord. The engine started and they made it home.
2) In high school my car could go approximately 320 miles on a tank of gas if I could average between 55 and 60mph (money was scarce so I knew exactly how much I needed to get around). One morning, after becoming sick and throwing up at a friends house in addition to being really pissed about other stuff, I was on my way home and my car died. When I coasted to a stop I was at 330 miles, the needle was pinned on E, and it wouldn't start. I just cried and sat there for a while when I prayed that Jesus would deal with it. Then I remembered the story I heard from the missionary in Ecuador, prayed, and started my car. I watched the needle rise to almost 1/4 tank, drove home and then drove to school the next day without getting gas. I made it 390 miles and had run my car out of gas intentionally about 4 times before that, never getting past 330.
Take it or leave it, it's just one of my experiences with 1st peter 5:6-7
Millions died for a LIE and millions will die in the future "for a lie"
Take religion out, and far fewer will die for a lie I believe that if everyone did their best to follow Jesus this would not be the case.
No Resurrection, No -what was it again?
"it would be pointless" I agree with Pete in that if there was no resurrection then Jesus would be a guy with some good ideas and a lot of misled followers who died for something that they lied about. Quite a strange conspiracy and I don't know what their objective would have been.
Critical thought experiment!!!
What if there was no life after death?
What if it was proven that once you die, that's it, the soul does not live on.
How would this influence your religious beliefs? Yes, I would not believe what the Bible teaches.
...you christians should cede the floor to the OP. Trust me brothers, he handles the pulpit way way WAY better than you.
Really? Seems like he begs off on answering any real questions, albeit in a kinda charming humble aw-shucks love-me sorta way. But whatever. Thanks and awwwwwwww, shucks. I like to hear other people's beliefs. It interests me and helps me evaluate my own. That includes any and all beliefs.
What amazes me is that seemingly intelligent people don't understand basic human psychology.
If you put a child in front on the TV and play the "Crocodile Hunter" for years, and tell the kid that Steve Irwin is God, and he died for your sins.
And we write a book about Steve, that builds him up and lies about reality, but we do it as an experiment.... what would happen
That kid will be able to "see", "talk to", "get advice from", "have him save me when I was in a desperate situation" -- STEVE IRWIN, the crocodile hunter!!!
That why all Religions are convinced that they are 100% correct.
Basic Human Psychology preprograms us to want to believe
I think that's a good analogy but I would wonder what the purpose of it would be, and if it would actually spread to every continent. I would also wonder how many people would be willing die for a random misleading story.
To your last point, that we are programmed to want to believe, I totally agree (Romans 2:15).
Not to mention the episode in Indo, when Steve Irwin was throwing some buckets of salt water (surfing) with style and power, in his trademark khaki birdwatching garb. Loved that guy!
please, someone post that footage Couldn't find it but that sounds awesome.
the Bible had many, many revisions, but you believe the bible to be the exacts words of the Apostles? I have researched this and believe that the Bible has been preserved more accurately than pretty much any other ancient text. Watch or read "A Case For Christ" by Lee Stroble for an introduction to the topic.
I believe they found some old camels in a place that wasn't where the story of Abraham took place. I also agree with the authors that it gives interesting insights into ancient trade. I believe a lot of Egyptian and Mesopotamian evidence would have to be ignored or explained away to conclude that there were not camels around 2000 BC.
I like to look into these archaeological studies that are grabbed up as evidence against the Bible. I have yet to find one that holds water (see Hittites, Belshazzar, and other figures from the Bible that were later discovered). If I want to have an opinion about anything I do my best to look at every side, though I accept that it's pretty hard for anyone to really be objective.
"well, the original words are in greek right? That's why it's severely important to bring all definitions from the languages. And morely important to bring in everything the entire bible say's pertaining that certain verse, or word!"
you mean like the word homosexual is mentioned twice, but love countless times, yet the Church consistently fights against the right of gays?
but, sure everyone is hypocrite like Pete said, so is this the excuse for denying the rights to a group the church does't understand?
sounds like the mixing of church and state to me
and nothing to do what what Christ said.
I think that's a fair assessment of your discussion.
Limpingcrab,
If a baby dies before being baptized, does it's soul still reside for eternity in God's waiting room called Limbo ? (Limbo = in Latin, Limbus. Limbus is a border or edge. In context, Limbo is the border edge of Hell)
If the once alive and then dead baby's soul residing in Limbo was to be made available to a material human body at conception, wouldn't this open up the slippery slope of reincarnation to Christians ? First, I believe that we are born with sin and that nobody is truly innocent in the biblical sense (Psalm 51:5), and that nobody can get to be with God without Jesus (John 14:6).
That being said, I'll give my opinion based on what I have learned from the bible, but this is debated by some people and not specifically stated in the Bible so I'm not adamant or dogmatic about it. By Old Testament custom, children were not accountable to follow the law of Moses until they were adults (13 years). The bible seems to imply that children cannot make decisions about good or evil until they are old enough to develop that train of thought (Isaiah 7:15). But the strongest evidence is from 2nd Samuel 12:21-23, when David mourns for his child until it dies. At that time he said he cannot bring it back, but he will go to it. I believe this implies that young children, or anyone incapable of knowing Jesus, are covered by His sacrifice for the sins of the world (1st John 2:2). I also believe that God loves our children even more than we do, and this inference would fit perfectly with the teachings in the Bible.
As to reincarnation, I don't know of anywhere in the Bible that would lend itself to that belief so I do not ascribe to it (Hebrew 9:27 and a bunch of others).
I'm sorry, but we should never support torture, not in any circumstance,
isn't crucification one of the worst types of Torture? I think it probably is. Or maybe being forced to boulder forever within sight of giant granite towers :)
Jesus loves everyone, but white Americans more than others?
is Trump the second coming of Christ?
Most Republicans sure think so!
I can't find that in the Bible, so I don't think so. Wait, did he come down on a cloud!? (Mark 13:26)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^Amen
before you posted i was sobbing over the prior posts on this page.(
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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good to know that:
Jesus can fill a gastank.
churches, even modern ones, still hate buttsex, but Christ is about love, but we will never be Christ, so it's cool for the church to keep legislating 'morality'
Camels are magic, and the bible is a the direct Word of God filtered through countless revisions, I'm considering worshiping camels.
what about Paul? funny how his doctrine is a lot more like modern Christianity than Christ himself
http://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul/
wait, wait, lemme guess... FAITH that Christianity is based on Christ, not Paul!, even though the Bible itself and historical records tell a much different story.
[url="http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity"]http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity[/url]
before you posted i was sobbing over the prior posts on this page.(
Paul was thrown to the lions, but a ST makes you sadface? buck up Christian Soldier, the end times are a comin!
have you thought about pet care post-rapture?
http://www.aftertherapturepetcare.com/
never too early to start planning! The fire and brimstone are coming for the gays, pot smokers, liberal democrats, Jews and dry toolers.
make sure Fluffy doesn't suffer!
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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I think that's a reasonable assessment. I do have a question if you don't mind a break in the format because I'm curious. What does "good" (or right, or anything like that) mean in the absence of any higher power? Just assume that my auto-response to you answer will be "why is that good?" Ex: I think anything that doesn't hurt people is good. My reply: Why is that good?
I'm not trying to diminish your view as I'm sure it's valid, I just want to understand what "good" means to people who believe only the material world exists and it's all atoms and electricity.
There it is, we've come through the nebulous to the nucleus.
My Dad, who was a brilliant man, was delivered from alcoholism through what he described as a higher power. He literally woke up one morning, from the abyss, with the adsolution he would never drink again. He didn't. He lived the last 35 years of his life as a sober and spiritual person.
We debated the question Limpcrab has posed for hours- years! Free of context, free of tradition, were we born with the innate ability to be good?
I chose my words carefully- Humanism (altruism and empathy), spirituality, love and forgiveness is my condensed version of good and I work every day to live by these simple tenants. They were learned over time by the pain I've caused others and the pain others have brought upon me. I honstly cannot equate this in any way to religion.
PS- I never questioned my Dad's experience and never will.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Need to post this again....time to stop proselytizing. We're all adults here who long ago made our personal decisions regarding religion.
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John M
climber
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I chose my words carefully- Humanism (altruism and empathy), spirituality, love and forgiveness is my condensed version of good and I work every day to live by these simple tenants. They were learned over time by the pain I've caused others and the pain others have brought upon me. I honstly cannot equate this in any way to religion.
Thats because no religion created that. God created altruism and empathy. Religion is not God. Religion is mans understanding of God. Since we are created to be altruistic and have empathy, then what you have discovered is simply what you were meant to be, though you have free choice to not be that. And this happens whether you were aware of how and why you were created or not. Because God's laws are written in your heart. It is only when we turn from God's ways that we become our not self and do harm.
First, I believe that we are born with sin
No sir, we were not originally born with sin. We were originally born into the what Genesis calls the garden of eden. We were not born with sin. We chose sin. Through reincarnation, we were then born with sin. And yes, I do understand that it would be difficult to find that in the bible. Perhaps impossible. Will you accept that it is possible to learn the more that Jesus said he had to tell us? Because the Holy spirit can guide us to the Truth?
John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth".
It says all the Truth. not some of the truth. Jesus himself said that there was more to tell us. When will you accept that? And when will you accept that the Holy Spirit can guide us to the rest of that Truth as Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would.
I tell you now.. reincarnation is real.
If Saint John, who put on the full mind of Christ and thus became the Christ came down from the heavens and told you that reincarnation was real, would you turn your back because its not in the bible? The only absolute Word of God is that which is written in your heart and in the testimony of Creation.
And no, I am not Saint John :-)
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Limpingcrab, you believe that you personally have experienced objective physical material miracles such as Jesus refilling your gas tank (and that sharing that might sway someone else's belief?) How often does that kind of thing happen? Why is that kind of thing always anecdotal information, and never objectively physically materially documented, the way science does it? Is there a conspiracy to hide that kind of information? Or do the Christian leprechauns purposefully sneak around and cover their tracks, the same way that mine do?
With respect to what is good, what is good is what is good. We don't say what's good - we just form beliefs about it. Why do we form beliefs? The same reason we do everything else - because it's advantageous. Advantageous how to who what is the goal and purpose of evolution? Which is to say, we don't really know - we don't have all the answers. But we really need to know, so we tell ourselves that we do.
Can we just wonder why people would die for a good story, and say we have beliefs about it but we don't know for sure? A little bit. But a big bit we need to fill in the answer with the easiest belief, according to what is easiest for each of us.
Lemmings are like that too, but they're not special like us. Like me, they don't get their gas tanks specially filled because of the good story that they happen to believe.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Historicity and origin of the Resurrection of Jesus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The historicity and origin of the Resurrection of Jesus has been the subject of historical research and debate, as well as a topic of discussion among theologians. The accounts of the Gospels, including the empty tomb and the appearances of the risen Jesus to his followers, have been interpreted and analyzed in diverse ways, and have been seen variously as historical accounts of a literal event, as accurate accounts of visionary experiences, as non-literal eschatological parables, and as fabrications of early Christian writers, among various other interpretations. It has been suggested, that the empty tomb was the result of Jesus' body having been stolen, or, as was common with Roman crucifixions, that Jesus was never entombed.
please read more on this subject
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_and_origin_of_the_Resurrection_of_Jesus
The story of the resurrection is mythology, there will never be enough evidence to prove that Jesus came back from the dead, it was impossible back then, just like it's impossible now, but we know better now,
I'm sure some guy in India says he has come back from death, do you believe him?
so he either didn't come back from the dead, or wasn't dead, or it was a LIE, fiction, deceit, fantasy, delusion.
Take your pick
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