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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 30, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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Blue you just reminded me of something I really do like about christianity.. The idea of choice..that a person does not require someone between them and god (or whatever).. that person must choose for oneself and hold to their beliefs.. That forcing ones beliefs on another accomplishes nothing and can save no one.
I do give some credit to that revolutionary way of thinking as part of the basis for our civilization and much of what is good about it.
Just sucks when so many Christians forget this fundamental idea.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jun 30, 2015 - 10:40pm PT
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You know you're hitting a nerve when they attack you personally for everything but what's on topic ... (Paraphrasing)
"Klimmer is a science teacher? Oh the world is coming to an end!!!!!
Klimmer is divorced or going through a divorce or his wife is divorcing him, how on G-d's green Earth can he say anything on the matter? The shame."
How many times do we have to go through this? The greatest minds and many of the fathers of modern science were all men of some type of faith predominantly Judeo-Christian:
Aristotle (many gods), Copernicus, Tycho Brahe/Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Newton, even Einstein (Judaism. Also said he was enamored with Jesus The Christ).
Yes I'm going through divorce. Not finished yet. You often have the one who petitions the divorce, The Petitioner, and the one who may not want the divorce, The Respondant. I'm the Respondant. But whether I want it or not it is going to happen. Thank you No Fault Divorce.
So do I have a right to talk about marriage? I think I do. I was married for 20 years when Lillith walked out the door. Many factors are to cause, differences in faith being one of them. Funny we stood on opposite sides of gay marriage. I would say the Bible, G-d's word says don't do it. It's sin. The Bible is very clear on the matter. Very black and white on the subject. She would disagree. She thinks homosexuality is ok. It's not hurting anyone. They love each other. What could be wrong ... Yada, yada, yada ...
Well you can see that would be one of many big rifs in a marriage. No longer equally yoked.
I recall a very well known Rabbi in the Good Book who was the most Orthodox Jew of them all. Then he had a miraculous encounter with Yeshua on the road to Damascus, the very well known Rabbi Shaul (in western Christendom he is known as The Apostle Paul).
He was a very Orthodox Jew, a Jew among Jews, studied under Rabbi Gamaliel, and a member of The Sanhedrin. To be so you have to be married. He was married. Then he became a believer in Yeshua HaMashiach. His very orthodox Jewish wife more than likely divorced him. He said when he came to Yeshua he lost all. That would include losing his wife for his faith in Yeshua HaMashiach. Being a believer often means personal sacrifice of some kind. People will hate you because the truth is not in them.
Rabbi Shaul had the most to say about marriage and divorce. Why? Because he knew both personally. He also knew what Rabbi Yeshua taught on these matters and he knew Orthodox Judaism, the Tenahk, and the Talmud. He knew these life experiences very well. He also knew the mind of G-d on the matter. Who better to talk about these matters than one who has experienced them in a very personal way?
Read all of 1Corithians 7.
So anyone here gonna tell Rabbi Shaul to get his house in order and to get his marriage in order to then be talk able to talk about marriage and divorce? He was a divorcee. His wife left him. Who knows better than Rabbi Shaul regarding these matters and the mind of HaShem?
So why attack me on similar grounds? I know marriage. I know divorce (going through it). I know the word of G-d regarding these matters.
My advice is to work it out (in a heterosexual marriage, gay marriage is not permissible). Go into it equally yoked and eyes wide open. You both should have an understanding that divorce is not permissible in G-d's eyes. He hates divorce. Read Micah 2. Divorce is only permissible in certain circumstances. And you don't want to feed into The Divorce Corp. It's brutal. No body wins.
DivorceCorp
http://www.divorcecorp.com
Watch the trailer for a splash of reality.
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thebravecowboy
climber
liberated libertine
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Jun 30, 2015 - 10:48pm PT
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The greatest minds and many of the fathers of modern science were all men of some type of faith
Aaaand our greatest soloist is an atheist.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jun 30, 2015 - 10:57pm PT
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Many atheists have come to know G-d.
Life happens. G-d sometimes gets through in very very special ways.
Several well known atheists in an attempt to disprove G-d, The Bible, and Yeshua, have then actually come to faith.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 30, 2015 - 11:46pm PT
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No longer equally yoked.
i don't think that's equally yoked means? do you really think all christian families see eye to eye on every passage? Do yuo know if Lillith loves the Lord?
i just read 7. And 8 & 9. What does 7:17-24 mean to you? and i ask for you to continue and read again 8 & 9, please:)
9:19
For though i am free from all men, i have made myself a servant to all, that i might win the more; and to the jews i became as a jew, that i might win jews; to those under the law, as under the law, that i might win those under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,but under law toward Christ), that i might win those without law; to the weak, i became as the weak. i have become all things to all men, that i might by all means save some. Now i do this for the gospels sake, that i may be partaker of it with you.
i pray that the HolySpirit guides your path
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Blue,
I only used one example and one difference in my wife's and my thoughts on faith. I'm not about to discuss all publicaly.That's personal. But our differences concerning our thoughts on homosexuality is a major rift. She would celebrate 2 High School lesbian girls winning King and Queen for the HS Homecoming and say "you go girls!" I would shake my head in disbelief and disapproval and look to the skies for Fire and Brimstone to rain from space and wipe out the entire HS like Sodom and Gomorrah. Lol
By the way, my wife's name is not Lilith. Lilith is a Talmudic myth? about Adam's first feminist wife and all the troubles she caused on all creation. Lol
http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/lilith
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
I'll get back to you on the readings of scripture.
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thebravecowboy
climber
liberated libertine
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Klim-dog said:
difference in...thoughts on faith. I'm not about to discuss all publically. That's personal. But our differences concerning our thoughts on homosexuality is a
matter for government regulation? and law enforcement?
Guh-fuggin-fawww!
EDIT: sorry to gang up on you Klimmer, you crazy coot. Do you rock climb, perchance? If so, perhaps we could bond on that, rather than weld our divergences.
DOUBLE-EDIT:
look to the skies for Fire and Brimstone to rain from space and wipe out the entire HS like Sodom and Gomorrah. Lol NFW. BEST. TROLL. EVAR.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Yo Roberto
that be brutha Paul throwin down the shidizzle on the byways how he would rap to get his jive understood by the crips or the bloods. Then on the flipside when he'd hop over to the valley, he'd like, toootally gag them with a spoon with his forsure forsure's
nawhatimean?
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jonnyrig
climber
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Just had a long discussion with an old grade school friend regarding this decision by the sup. court, some other topics, and the other recent hobly lobby decision. He, being a staunch believer in God, argues that all should have equal protection under the law; but that it should not be labelled "marriage"; but rather labelled a civil union, with otherwise all equal protections under law. I tried to point out to him that with every reference to his beliefs (he kept repeating "I believe...") the bible proclaiming marriage to be "between a man and a woman" he was effectively suggesting legislation that would be discriminatory, only allowing a civil union between a man and a woman to be labelled as marriage. This, I stated, would NOT in fact be equal. He disagreed. I pointed out that not all religions may necessary define marriage in the same manner, and that there are indeed Christian faiths that, using the bible as their guiding scripture, have an open and affirming system of belief that is already accepting of the union between a same-sex couple as a true marriage.
We did sort of agree, that individual private business (similar to the hopbbly lobby decision) should be allowed the right to refuse service based on their own religious beliefs. The distinction being PUBLIC entities and basic PUBLIC services should not be allowed the right to discriminate. In other words, your local catholic church could refuse to perform or host a gay wedding, and your local baker could refuse to whip up a wedding cake; but the local park service could NOT refuse to host the wedding based on gayness, and the local county office could NOT refuse to issue a marriage license based on the sexual orientation of a couple.
In other news, we're both gun nutz, neither of us gives a rat's ass what two consenting adults do in the bedroom (or three or four consenting adults for that matter), the news media is nothing but sensationalized diarrhea, we don't get out to climb often enough, life is busy and people lack work ethic, and it's hot as ballz down here.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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By the way if you want a great Bible (and free) translated by Jewish Hebrew scholars and free to read on the web (you can also get the iPhone app too ...)
You'll also learn all the correct Bible names in transliteration Hebrew and not the incorrect westernized English names
The Tree of Life Messianic Family Bible
https://www.bible.com/bible/314/gen.1.tlv
Click on the upper right corner TLV and you can read many other translations to compare. Very cool.
Here is an easy comparison to see how good the TLV bible is ...
Compare Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 in the TLV to any other version of the Bible and you will instantly see the Jewish Hebrew Scholars got it right. You have to be Jewish and know the Jewish mindset and cultural customs and idiosyncrasies and know Hebrew extremely well to
get it right and accurate without bringing in western mindset and misleading translations.
Genesis 1:1 -2 (TLV)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water."
They nailed it. Do you see the huge difference from Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2? Do you see the gap in time? The Earth is not 6000 years old. It is Billions of years old, and the Universe is 13.8 Billion years old. This proper translation brings out the creation, ruination, and recreation sequence really well ( aka The Gap Theory). In other translations these deep mysteries of G-d are lost.
The iPhone TLV app:
http://www.treeoflifeversion.com/#!tlv-bible-app/c1bs6
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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i've had the tree of life on my phone for a couple yrs now:)
have you ever seen Melissa Scott? She's on an LA station at 2am. She describes everything through hebrew and greek! She's why i never get enough sleep,,
Robert L, Thank You. makes me want to go get a ticket tomorrow:^D
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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i wouldn't think he'd be very stoked for any marriage that wasnt done in His name?
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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*
This thread grew so quickly...I hope this is not a repost...
Words by, Jessica Eaves Matthews.
The separation of church and state is essential.
"I say this with sincere love to my many friends who are passionate fundamentalist Christians who believe that the SCOTUS’s decision yesterday on marriage equality is an abomination to themselves and to God: As a lawyer, I need to attempt to set the record straight.
Our country was created by our founding fathers very deliberately to prevent the establishment of a national religion from our governance. The Church - Catholic or Anglican - was central to almost every other country in the world historically, especially England from which our founding fathers separated. It was critical to our founding fathers that one central religion NOT be declared and NOT be incorporated into our Constitution or governance. They understood that an establishment of a national religion would ultimately abridge the very rights they believed were fundamental and were meant to be recognized and protected by the Bill of Rights and ultimately the Constitution.
Religion-based loss of basic rights had been their experience in England and they wanted to prevent that here.
The fact is that this decision yesterday was a LEGAL decision about the scope of our Constitutional rights as humans and US citizens. It was not about religion, religious beliefs or religious freedom. It is about equal rights, just as the decision in this country to give women the vote and the decision to abolish slavery were about equal rights. Any decision regarding the scope of a constitutional right (whether passed by Congress or interpreted by the SCOTUS) is a legal decision, not one based in religion or morality.
Rights are not and should not be up for a popular vote or up to the states to determine. Rights are absolute and cannot be dependent upon anything other than the fact that the person is a human being and is a citizen of the US. If those two conditions are met, YOUR belief system about what is MORALLY or spiritually right or wrong does not matter and should not. You should be glad that is the case, because it would be just as easy for another religion to take over and curtail your rights as a Christian (something that has happened throughout history).
In fact, one religious party believing they know the truth for all humans is how terrible oppression starts - that is how Naziism started, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the Klu Klux Klan, Al-Qaeda and now ISIS - the most destructive, hateful, murderous periods of human history have arisen directly out of one religious group (ironically, most of these examples were lead by Christians) believing their religion and religious beliefs were THE truth, and therefore they had the right to take away the rights (and lives) of those who lived or believed differently than them.
Our founding fathers wanted to prevent that outcome. So does our current Supreme Court. THAT is the law of the land and I could not be more grateful to be an American than when human rights are protected. I don’t have to agree with you to believe with all my heart and soul that YOUR rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should be protected against oppression or prejudice. LGBT US citizens deserve exactly the same treatment. God Bless America.
p.s. Those railing against the decision of marriage equality as a basic constitutional right are confusing the idea of constitutional (i.e human) rights with certain types of behavior (the stuff they call "sin"). But human rights are inherent in all human beings and US citizens - not doled out based on who is behaving "well" and who isn't. All US citizens should have the equal right to pursue life, liberty and happiness, regardless of the "sins" they commit. The only behavior that should curtail your constitutional rights is if you commit a crime (a felony) and are convicted. But even then, criminals can still marry, have kids, own property, work and live in our communities. The only things they can't do is vote and carry firearms. If committing a sin was a barrier to receiving basic constitutional rights in this country, we would all be in big trouble, not just the LGBT community."
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couchmaster
climber
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Hey Klimmer, that link to the Bible is fantastic. Thanks for sharing it. What a massive amount of work must have gone into it to be able to change to another version/translation of the Bible. There's like 43 different versions you can simply click to compare. Not a believer here, but have an open mind for knowledge. Have read through the Bible twice now. Wish this had been available.
Woot!
Nita: thanks for this LOL " If committing a sin was a barrier to receiving basic constitutional rights in this country, we would all be in big trouble, not just the LGBT community." Haha!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"He, being a staunch believer in God, argues that all should have equal protection under the law; but that it should not be labelled "marriage"; but rather labelled a civil union, with otherwise all equal protections under law."
Oh, that separation of church and state, in the manner that the founding fathers truly intended, and on which our Constitution is fundamentally based, could ever happen.
But no...in spite of that intent, Christianity remains a pesky, persistent piece of gum stuck to the shoe of the highest ideals that our Country could achieve. As long as Christianity remains a part of our political process, persecution of select groups will continue, hypocrisies will be commonplace, and we just won't ever get there in terms of achieving the highest ideals of a true democracy.
Edit:
Nita's post is right on!
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I can care less what the bible says, all the biblical laws were just the basic right wing Conservative morals from 1000s of years ago
If God could talk to anyone back then, he sure as hell can talk to us now, and he has told us to move on from the BS bible and love your brother.
Gays are born gay, so let them have a normal live without discrimination
That's what God said
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Huh....never thought of you as a religious man, Ron. That explains a lot, though.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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But ill choose my God over the decaying fabric of "society" any dayyyyyy Many of us believe that the decaying fabric of society is due in large part to religion.
And we are correct.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Well, the Founding Fathers & I share the belief in individual liberty, and freedom from the imposition of religion of any type into one's lives. Not sure why such a fundamental principle could be lost on any good, informed American, or why one would actively fight against it (or raise pointless red herring arguments).
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