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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 12, 2015 - 03:45pm PT
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Good points, Lorenzo, but you might note that I explicitly included Christianity with my critique of modern Islam. I also agree, and have explicitly stated multiple times, that the United States should lead by example - as we all should. And yes, we have a long way to go in making that happen.
I can only make critiques of the civil rights policies of Islamic nations and their policies from my American seat, however.
That is not to say that I don't actively expend a substantial amount of effort and money trying to improve the same here in America so that we can provide a better example than we do now. I hold my own country up to the same standars as I do others. It's just that I can actually do something substantive here - but I'm limited to words with regards to elsewhere.
While historical atrocities are instructive and interesting - all we can do now is effect change in the world today and in the future. And the inconvenient fact is that Islamic nations suffer from a lack of separation of church and state in a way that is far more damaging to human rights than, say, in Europe and America TODAY. That remains a valid critique - even given America's checkered past and spotty present.
I would also note that my recent comments are not focused on radical, violent Islam - that field has been well plowed already, but to the official policies of Islamic states today with regards to equal rights for women and gays. I haven't conflated ISIS with, say, the Islamic laws of Saudi Arabia. The extreme violence of ISIS doesn't preclude the relevance of critiquing the human rights abuses of the latter, however.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 12, 2015 - 04:08pm PT
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What I see is you include Fudamentalist Christianity, but didn't make the distinction with Islam.
Separation of Church and State is a pretty new concept in the history of Civilization. For most of recorded history religion either sanctioned or determined the ruler. Most times there was no difference.
Great Britain still hasn't evolved out of it. The head of State not only has to be Christian, but of the Anglican sect and has to marry somebody of the same sect. The Monarch is in fact the head of the sect. He/she holds title of defender of the Faith, a title earned when their Kings were Catholic.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 12, 2015 - 04:11pm PT
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Good point, although we do now have a Muslim President. :-)
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 12, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
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As long as we are belaboring the religious component of US government, the Revolution had a pretty big religious component, especially in New England. It was Christian v. Christian.
We forget that a lot of disatisfaction in the colonies was due to them being settled by religious outcasts from Britain and Europe in General.
Most of New England and New York was Puritan or Hugenot ( see Paul Revere aka Apollos Riviore and the settlers of Neu Amsterdam) Maryland was Catholic. Large parts of New Jersey were Congregationalist Puritans. Rhode Island was folks cast out by Puritans. Pennsylvania was either Quaker or Calvinist.The town I grew up in was Huntington NY, founded by Presbiterian Puritans and named after the Birthplace of Oliver Cromwell, a Puritan, and founded in the year he assumed the title of Protector of the Realm. Cromwell wasn't an English hero by the time of Geo. III (His family were kings solely because they weren't Catholics). Nathan Hale was a recent graduate of Yale, then a Presbiterian seminary College. ( tradition says he landed in Huntington before his capture)
the south mostly went along for Economic reasons, but it would be foolish to claim there was no religious component.
Our idea of freedom of religion was mostly a side effect of unifying the colonies, and even after the bill of rights, states limited public office to certain religions ( see Virginia. That was so until the Civil War) The Constitution only limited the federal Government there.
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson pretended they were Anglican so they could run for office. Their writings are clear they were Deists as most Masons were. We can save the Mason's role in the founding of the country for later.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 12, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
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I'm a little surprised the article doesn't really touch on where a lot of French Muslims came from.
Muslim Algeria was considered part of Territorial France just like Corsica and Reunion still are until 1962 and those folks were technically French citizens. (The families of Zindine Zidane and Karim Mostafa Benzema among them ) it also explains why Algeria is part of UEFA.
Despite that, the French committed Atrocities in Algeria all during the civil war against its own citizens. During that time ties were forged with other Muslims. It's remarkable the Muslims in France feel a connection.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Jan 13, 2015 - 08:38am PT
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Jan, et al, thank you for a very reasoned, mature discussion about an area that is fraught with nuance regarding what brings about such actions.
With few exceptions, I have enjoyed, especially the later postings, on this thread. I have learned a lot and saw a variety of perspectives and viewpoints represented without anyone being shouted down that they are blindly stupid for the beliefs they have.
Given some of the reasonable discourse on this thread I found myself researching some of the history that was mentioned. Very interesting to revisit that history and it's resulting pathways to the present.
If this thread continues I hope that it will continue in the same manner to which it has evolved.
Thanks again for the robust discussion of ideas and not personalities.
Susan
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 13, 2015 - 08:45am PT
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equating the degree of separation of church and state in England and say, saudi arabia is not intellectually honest. Does Iran or Saudi Arabia have a mechanism to override religious bigotry and attain equal protection under the law for all its citizens? No. Does the US? Yes.
Nor is claiming that the concept, now over 2 centuries old, is 'recent'. and, unlike Christianity, which has its tolerant Unitarians and Quakers, there is no similar form of moderate Islam . Every sect is anti gay.
In the end, what happens in America or Britain renders the concept of sharia no less of a basic human rights violation.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 13, 2015 - 09:08am PT
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Lorenzo, while Christians and the western countries like USA, Germany, Canada, ect. might be fcked; name one predominantly Muslim country that is a better place to live for minorities, women and gays?
Well, lets see. Muslim countries have elected as their President 7 women, how many has the US elected?
How about Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, to name just three?
Why, during the great jazz era of a couple decades ago, did so many black musicians go to Europe? Because they were treated as people, not by Jim Crow.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 13, 2015 - 09:27am PT
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Does any of that negate Saudi Arabia's need for separation of church and state today?
No.
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jan 13, 2015 - 10:30am PT
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And now Godwin's law has been invoked.
It is bound to happen. Interestingly, following Germany’s defeat in WWII besides South America many Nazi fled to the Middle East to start anew.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/sunday-review/old-nazis-never-die.html#
Well, lets see. Muslim countries have elected as their President 7 women, how many has the US elected?
The USA does not represent all of western culture, (pretty centric view IMO). Plenty of western countries have elected female leaders or historically been ruled by Queens. If all one had to do was elected a female head of state to prove you are tolerant, then all the USA has to do is elect a black man to be president to show how tolerant the USA is; and we all know tolerance here in the USA is a work in progress.
Turkey is great, hope it stays that way, to this simple westerner Istanbul is a great place to visit.
The western press will not stop satire, nor should they.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 13, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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One might also note that the only woman to be elected as prime minister of a conservative Muslim country was assassinated.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 13, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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Moosedrool, that's a really good essay, written by a Moslem who has to has learned to live with a Western democracy:
"Today I still embrace my Islamic background, but without the dogma, repression and strict adherence to ritual."
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 13, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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Thanks scseagoat and moosedrool for the appreciation of our tolerance. Several of us have a long history of respectfully disagreeing on the various science vs religion threads.We never agree on that issue, so some people have thought it was a waste of time, but we have learned how to discuss conflicting ideas it seems.
As for the tolerance in Christianity, it occured rather late. I have ancestors who barely escaped the Catholic Churche's Albighensian crusade in southern France, with their lives, as they were an interesting group called the Catharis. Likewise, only 350 years ago, other ancestors were persecuted because they were Quakers. Interestingly enough, they first found refuge in Catholic Ireland since the same Puritans and Church of England persecuted Irish for their Catholic religion. Later they escaped to America where they still had problems with the Puritans in New England and the Church of England after Cromwell's followers were expelled from the British government.
And then there is all the persecution they faced in North Carolina when they came out against slavery in the 1700's.
I remain optimistic that Islam is going through the beginnings of a Protestant style reformation. I was very impressed with Salmann Rushdie's comments on Bill Mahrer's show about current events really being a battle for power in the Islamic world, with the terrorism in the West just a side show.And if you know anything about western history, the Reformation was anything but peaceful - Catholics against Protestants and vice versa and one Protestant group against another.It seems humanity is condemned to the make the same mistakes over and over yet slowly we seem to be making some progress.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 13, 2015 - 11:41am PT
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Jan 13, 2015 - 08:45am PT
equating the degree of separation of church and state in England and say, saudi arabia is not intellectually honest. Does Iran or Saudi Arabia have a mechanism to override religious bigotry and attain equal protection under the law for all its citizens? No. Does the US? Yes.
Nor is claiming that the concept, now over 2 centuries old, is 'recent'. and, unlike Christianity, which has its tolerant Unitarians and Quakers, there is no similar form of moderate Islam . Every sect is anti gay.
In the end, what happens in America or Britain renders the concept of sharia no less of a basic human rights violation.
In reverse order.
The concept of Sharia is a system of law made by people in power in any Muslim Society. It isn't a uniform law. In case you haven't been paying attention, some of what happens in US law is Torture against Muslims under the Geneva convention and is still going on. Glass house.
Unitarians aren't Christian by any measure. I'm Catholic, I Know. I was married in a Quaker service. They don't require the recitation of the Nicean creed, which by definition doesn't make them Christian. Some Quaker sects don't use ministers and believe every person can receive revelation from God individually without guidance from Clergy. That makes them Gnostics, which also makes them Heretics in most Christian denominations. ( and makes them borderline people of the book to some Muslims) their beliefs in that respect are similar to the Albiguensians, who were exterminated.
The U.S. system to overide bigotry against gays can be traced to five Supreme Court decisions dating from 1986 to 2013. It is by no means complete, and not likely to evolve a lot with the current court. To imply it dates back to the founding fathers is ridiculous. And to say acceptance of those decisions are anywhere near to being universally accepted on the local level is even more so.
As to separation of Church and state, I can't think of anything more disingenuous than using the most conservative Islamic state and culture in the World to make your comparison against Britain when it comes to separation of Church and State. ( even though the King there is NOT head of the religion and doesn't appoint religious leaders).
Choose instead to compare to the largest Islamic country on Earth.
That would be Indonesia with about 210 million Muslims, about two thirds of the population. It is a secular democracy. Freedom of religion is guaranteed under the constitution, and there is religious tolerance of large communities of Buddists and Hindus ( and animist religions) most of the Island of Bali is Hindu. Christmas and Hindu and Buddist celebrations are official State Holidays.
And the constitution doesn't require the head of State to be of any religious denomination, unlike Britain. ( or by extension, any of the other 16 countries of which the Queen is head of State. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, etc). They have guaranteed gender equality under their constitution. They have a gay community and ( sort of ) tolerate gays in a don't ask don't tell sort of way, which puts them about 15 years behind us. Give it time. As it happens their democracy is about 15 years old.
You can find similar evolution all across the range of Sunni Muslem of the Safi'i branch. all Sunni aren't Wahabi like the Saudis.
There are plenty of other examples. In Spain, the head of State is King Felipe. He's Grand Master of three Catholic religious Military Orders, including the Order of Santiago, which among other things run several male and female convents. They were created out of the Ruins of the Knights Templar and the Knights Hospitaliers.
( as an aside, one of those orders, the Religious order of Calatrava doesn't require you to be Catholic or even Christian. Members have included the Duke of Wellington for his services to Spain and...
Wait for it...
The current King of Saudi Arabia. )
And it isn't restricted to monarchies, even constitutional ones.
The very highest religious order in the Catholic Church is the Order of Christ. It was formed directly out of the Knights Templar by agreement between King Denis of Portugal and Pope John 22. It is the last surviving piece of the Knights Templar which was exterminated everywhere else. It was just renamed. The Grand master of this Order and the ruling council of the order are appointed by the Republic of Portugal now.
Know of any Grand Mosques in Portugal?
( see also Knights of Malta)
So much for separation of Church and State in Western Democracies.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 13, 2015 - 11:52am PT
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And then there is Israel.
Which may be heading in the direction of requiring citizens to be Jewish. And where the Ultra-orthodox have enormous political power.
So church-state issues are hardly limited to Islamic countries.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 13, 2015 - 11:58am PT
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You've shotgunned a lot of stuff here - it's difficult to tease out a central point to the above.
There are mosques in Portugal. That the Grand Mosque isn't there - well, I'm not sure what point that attempts to make.
Regarding the comment that one religious sect may consider another illegitimate is merely a statement of the obvious. Given that nearly all deistic religions lay claim to some absolute truth - and that they disagree with one another as to what this truth is, I'm not sure how that recognition relates to this or any discussion. It does support the claim that the doctrine of all of these deistic sects is of human invention, however - therefore supporting atheism as most likely hypothesis with regards to the existence of gods.
Regarding Islam - is there a sect that supports equal rights for homosexuals, as there is in within the Christian and Jewish faiths? If there is, I'm not aware of it. Again, a specific claim that has yet to be refuted here. Hence, even the most liberal Islamic sects are in need of reform on this issue.
Given that the 14th Amendment (Equal Protection Clause) that has so far been employed to secure equal marital rights for Americans dates from after the Civil War, I'm not sure what your point regarding the Founding Fathers is either. One mans implication is another's strawman.
And your understanding of SCOTUS opinions with regard to marital rights is inaccurate. For the most part - SCOTUS has avoided making any rulings on the issue - instead deferring to the States to decide it. The reason marital equality has advanced so rapidly in the past few years, state by state, has much more to do with advocacy within those states and, most notably, the abandonment of anti-gay policies and legal defense of DOMA by the current administration and its federal judges. States with anti-gay-marriage amendments and policies have pragmatically realized they're destined to lose once their appeal reaches the federal court level, so they have, for the most part, abandoned such appeals. No SCOTUS required.
Mine was a response to your comparison of English separation of church and state and conservative Muslim countries. Own it.
No one here has stated that separation of church and state issues are limited to any one country.
I've merely stated that such issues are particularly egregious and in need of reform in conservative Islamic countries. Anyone disagree with that?
Nope. Didn't think so.
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John M
climber
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Jan 13, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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Thanks Lorenzo and Jan.. I am enjoying your posts.
That makes them Gnostics, which also makes them Heretics in most Christian denominations. ( and makes them borderline people of the book to some Muslims)
Yep
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