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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 23, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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First, begin switching to natural gas as a transportation fuel. We are swimming in a glut of low priced natural gas.
It has been used as a preferred fleet vehicle fuel for decades. Reason? It is cheaper than gasoline. The only problem is that you go half as far on a tank, hence its use as a fleet vehicle fuel. UPS and busses don't stray too far from the filling station.
GE now has these NG filling stations in a "box." Just put them in place and you are set to go. We need some type of critical mass where the infrastructure is put in place. Congress has done a crappy job of managing energy production, so laws probably won't work well. Look at corn ethanol. No way would it be price competitive without the subsidy. It is a huge rip off beloved by red state farmers. I have a problem with the social addiction of most farmers.
That would go a long way towards easing up on our imports.
I am a bit of a pessimist on other fuels. If it isn't price competitive, it just won't work. Natural gas is an easy one. Iran has been switching to NG for many years.
The Koch brothers are not well liked in the oil business. They got caught ripping off the Osage Nation years ago. They were probably ripping off everybody (they were a big crude oil purchaser).
That didn't go down well with oil producers.
The other thing is just habits. Carpool, light rail if the population density is sufficient, etc. During the really massive oil price shock of the late seventies, Jimmy Carter managed to cut our consumption by 25% in only a couple of years. I assume that many here are too young to remember wearing a sweater in the winter, fuel efficient vehicles, and such.
Other than the 55 mph speed limit, most of it was strictly voluntary. For some reason, even with oil at 100 bucks per barrel, I still see tons of people driving Suburbans and full sized pickups around with only one person in them.
Oil is obviously still too cheap. When the price squirts up another 2 bucks per gallon, we will see changes.
You didn't disprove global warming, by the way. You side stepped that one.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 24, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
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You didn't disprove global warming, by the way. You side stepped that one.
I thought it has dis-proven itself. It's not "warming". And my point was that all the do-gooders who claim to be saving the planet are just soaking the system for their own interests.
Wouldn't all this money be better spent in other ways that I described? That actually help people who have immediate needs? In other words, you could have direct impacts on the quality of life of people, instead of having gov't fund the likes of Solyndra.
If green energy is so awesome and ready-for-primetime, why do they need so much gov't subsidy?
I agree about NG and LNG though. I just don't like gov't mandates. I still like my V8 offroad truck. I'll go LNG when it becomes more convenient, and the engines have similar torque. (I think they may be getting good at the horsepower/torgue thing though).
I guess my overall point is that we are already making great strides in reducing oil-related pollution and efficiency. Can we go back to incandescent bulbs though? I really f*#king hate the light the CFL bulbs produce.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 24, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
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NG as a near term harm reduction strategy makes sense. Half the US lives in cities where the reduced range of an NG vehicle isn't such an insurmountable limitation.
NG's cheaper by $.10 a mile or so but NG cars and home refilling stations are prohibitively expensive - you're way better off buying a hybrid these days.
If NG vehicle and home refueling station sticker prices come down, and gasoline goes way up, NG could give gasoline hybrid's a run for their money. I don't see much momentum in that direction around these parts, though. Mostly, people are moving to hybrids, electrics, and share cars.
New wind generation capacity is now cheaper per MWh than new coal or NG generation capacity in many areas, both here in the US an abroad. The efficiency, longevity, and maintenance requirements of wind turbines continues to improve rapidly.
The idea that wind power needs to be subsidized is - like most partisan talking points with an agenda - very dated.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 24, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
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You can power a electric car off of a normal house roof sized solar panel, and have enough power left to power your home.
Everyone could step off the grid for good, that's why these guys invent the hysteria to confuse and divert.
Some of us chose not to use electric cars. It's a 'choice'. I prefer high-powered V8 vehicles, with 4WD. It's a lifestyle choice.
Is that still okay?
I can see the beauty of solar-power for the home though. Makes sense.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 24, 2014 - 11:32pm PT
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PV for the home is not cost effective unless the site has no grid to draw from. Centralized power generation makes much more sense in areas with any population density.
Home passive solar water heating (and passive space heating) does make sense, however.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 25, 2014 - 12:18am PT
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That's very nice, Fort.
You and your eco-nazi brethren are what's wrong with the green movement. Keep it up!
This will back-fire on the movement.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 25, 2014 - 12:21am PT
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The movement continues at pace, backfires and all - more and more people are doing the right thing, doing what they can to help, even if you're not.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 25, 2014 - 12:37am PT
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The movement continues at pace, backfires and all - more and more people are doing the right thing, doing what they can to help, even if you're not.
I know, just don't tell me what to do. I'm just sayin' that the people who want to FORCE this stuff on people are using a failing strategy.
It dissuades, not convinces, or persuades.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 25, 2014 - 12:42am PT
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Blurring, you crack me the fuk up. You're ok with lifestyle choices just so long as they gybe with your redneck, conservative agenda. I hope your kid's teacher is a heavily pierced Mexican gay Nazi.
Wow, now that's caring. Thanks!
I'm just into personal liberty and independence. You know, just like gays and women's rights to 'choose'.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 25, 2014 - 01:11am PT
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NG will not be a "home" filling station. There will be regular filling stations with the equipment to quickly fill your tank with LNG. There is one a block away from an office I used to work at.
Also, at today's prices, the savings are far more than 10% of equivalent gasoline.
It will be a huge cut in carbon emissions. We have covered this, and NG is the most carbon efficient of the FF's.
Beyond that, I dunno. We will have to face the music fairly soon even if GW really is a hoax. We are running out of the stuff.
Hubbert's Peak is an interesting book.
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
san diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2014 - 10:24am PT
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"The movement continues at pace, backfires and all - more and more people are doing the right thing, doing what they can to help, even if you're not."
Love this Tvash
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Mar 25, 2014 - 10:32am PT
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Base, don't you think new generation nuclear is the logical replacement as well as NG?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 25, 2014 - 11:25am PT
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I like nuclear. There is a lot of baloney in some enviro groups, just like the conservative drones. For instance there is a crew putting in a new oil pipeline near where I am currently working. This whole region is covered by the Ogallala Aquifer, but nobody is complaining. I can drive forty miles in any direction and see the regular center pivot irrigation. Why isn't somebody screaming about THIS pipeline?
Spin is just the bait on the hook. I find it astonishing that in this age, people on both sides of the debate lie and exaggerate....and are believed. Are people really that stupid? Apparently so.
France is a good example of an oil importing country that is concerned about their energy security. They are heavy on nuclear. it is a blatant fact that we snuggle up to some unsavory characters due to our reliance on imported oil. We would be safer as a country if our energy policy recognized this. Instead we take the easiest energy policy: cheap oil at any cost.
We need to start looking at all forms of energy, because the kids will see declining world oil production in their lifetimes. This will be a huge problem in 50 more years.
What would happen if the Arab nations cut off their exports to us?
That problem is simple math. "Drill Baby Drill" is not a long term solution.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Mar 25, 2014 - 11:48am PT
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I agree Base. Long term solution no, but near term solution yes. That is, while we divert some of the hundreds of billions thrown down the ratholes of endless studies having little application to reality and subsidies of alternatives that are currently non-economic into R&D and deployment of viable nearly on the shelf replacement technologies. The problem is all sensibilities are thrown out the window as competing ideologies, bordering on religions, are engaged in combat for the perceived spoils. Where are the rational adults in this day and age?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 25, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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Bluering: "I'm just into personal liberty and independence. You know, just like gays and women's rights to 'choose'."
Just curious - do you support equal marriage for all and a woman's right to plan her family, or not, as she see's fit?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 25, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
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Just curious - do you support equal marriage for all and a woman's right to plan her family, or not, as she see's fit?
No, not all equal marriage for all, but think it should not be a Federal or State issue. Gov't should be out of marriage. Keep it at religious marriage or civil unions, both treated equally.
The women's right thing I am fine with.
Fort Mental is excluding some facts from the guy who got shot and killed.
EDIT: Oh, and I support new nuke technologies to replace other types (coal) of electrical energy production.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 26, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
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Since the Keystone thing has lulled a bit:
BLU: "No, not all equal marriage for all, but think it should not be a Federal or State issue. Gov't should be out of marriage. Keep it at religious marriage or civil unions, both treated equally."
I'm having some difficulty resolving the 'equality' concept here.
Marriage is a state and federal issue - it's a contract with tax, guardianship, property, and immigration considerations (to name just a few).
Washington state has one size fits all marriage - if you meet the age/consent requirement, you get a license and submit a marriage document. The thousand or so marriage rights are granted to that couple. Done.
The state doesn't care either way about the religious component. If you want to add that, that's all you.
Is a system like Washington's the kind you support?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 27, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
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I'm having some difficulty resolving the 'equality' concept here.
Marriage is a state and federal issue - it's a contract with tax, guardianship, property, and immigration considerations (to name just a few).
Washington state has one size fits all marriage - if you meet the age/consent requirement, you get a license and submit a marriage document. The thousand or so marriage rights are granted to that couple. Done.
The state doesn't care either way about the religious component. If you want to add that, that's all you.
Is a system like Washington's the kind you support?
No I do not support that personally. And if I had my way, it would be as I said, equal treatment of civil-unions and religious matrimony, or marriage.
Liberals always try to dilute things, or push things their way, by changing the definition of words, or mis-using them. The ACA is a good example of this. They rebrand things because that's the only way they know they'll 'sell'.
I'd also support getting marriage and civil unions away from the hands of the IRS and most others.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 27, 2014 - 08:40pm PT
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Damn that 14th Amendment. First the blacks, then the women, now this.
I still can't tease any logic out of your justification of Jim Crow for gays with regards to marriage, what you mean by 'dilution' - other than another word for 'inferior' ('bigotry' where I'm from - we prefer cutting to the chase), or why two essentially identical laws would make any sense whatsoever for anyone, but it looks like things are going in favor of equality so I reckon I really don't have to bother.
The courts have ruled that the whole 'marriage under threat from d gays' idea is complete bullshit - quite the opposite - they've ruled that preventing gays from marrying goes against the state's interest to ensure that children are raised within the secure, stable environment that marriage can provide.
In other words, marriage bans actually threaten marriage.
No sh#t, Sherlock.
Doh!
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